Monday, June 15, 2009

the gospel and a funeral

Yesterday was the funeral service for my grandma. My friend and pastor volunteered to do the service. I asked him ahead of time about which scriptures he was going to use to share the gospel. He told me that he was going to use John 1:12, with Ps. 23 and the story of David as the shepherd.

I'm caught in passion to share the gospel. But not just the gospel, alone. I also want to share His graciousness. No "baseball bats." This is a funeral, after all. And this is my family, who I know very well. What a prime position God has given me, to use for His glory.... Not only to most readily minister emotionally in this acute moment of distress. That would have been enough, wouldn't it? But I get to talk most appropriately about "religion" at a funeral, and no matter how someone might object to Christ they will accept it in this cultural setting.

"Green light."

I still do not fully grasp the role women can take in speaking in mixed company about the Word of God. But my pastor was there presiding. And, most of what I said of scripture was actually a recount of individual conversations with Grandma. So in a couple of ways I do not think I broke any quasi-feminist ground.

After my pastor finished his gospel, he asked for family to speak, and I was the only one. What you read below is not "written to impress." Exactly the opposite, it is written to sound conversational in speech, and as empty as possible of "Christianese."

Lizzy kneels by great-grandma's grave



Two daughters, two nieces

I don't have a great sense of humor. I wish I did. Grandma was keenly clever; she was always laughing, always cracking jokes. All three of her sons got her funny bone, and I'm waiting to see if I inherited hers, too.

She always loved me and my sister, and I told her that I knew it without a doubt. She said back to me, "Indeed, I do." I started to get to know her when we moved out here and I was 13. I'm still learning about her. There are so many amazing times and circumstances she has gone through. She knew times of great luxury, and she knew times of poverty. She worked hard, at everything she did. She even gave up smoking just because one day she decided to quit and followed through - she was a determined and strong woman.

One of her greatest strengths, in my eyes, was her optimism. A famous consolation of hers was "Well, it's better than nothing!" and I can see her saying it with a smile. I think she earned the right to say such a thing to others.

I don't know how she would have gotten through without her optimism. She beat a lot of odds. Many of the conversations she and I had in the last ten years were on our crucified and risen Lord Jesus. She and I had started going to church regularly about the same time. I don't think she ever grew tired of thinking about what Jesus has done, for all of us. She's known about it all her life. She believed as Hebrews 9:22 says, that without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness for sins, but since Jesus did suffer and His blood was shed, we who know this have already become sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of His purchased possession, as Ephesians 1:13 says. That's you and me, if we've believed in Jesus's sufferings for us - even if it's not easy to understand.

Is it just that easy? Would be her question. Yes, eternal life is absolutely free.

Is it just that easy? I like asking the question, too.

One of the last times I spent with her I quoted John 6:47 "Most assuredly I say to you, whoever believes in me has everlasting life." I didn't have to say much to her, she nodded her head in agreement. Then later she was joyful and we talked a lot about family.

My sister and I have this way of differentiating between our two grandmas. Grandma Evelyn is "the cool grandma." She really was cool. I look at her life and realize how great I would have it to be like her. She knew suffering. But she also had learned, perhaps from observing what Jesus did on the cross, that suffering does not last forever. We know this. Suffering is a part of life. But it only lasts for a little while, and then it is done.

It isn't "just that easy" to know this, but by faith I know that she is present with her Savior now, and those of us who have been forgiven of our wrongdoings will also be present with her one day too. I'm an optimist as she was. I need more than optimism, however, and I think I have it. I don't want to ever grow tired of hearing it either. I praise God believing how He holds us through all the circumstances of our life on this earth, and into eternity as well.

She really had suffered, dying from cancer and not having proper pain management. Everybody was just not well, thinking about how needless it was. Her suffering is something God and I really talked a lot about. And when I couldn't tell Grandma a scripture about suffering for glory, I did tell her exactly what I said above.

I said to her, "Grandma I know that you're frustrated."

She raised an eyebrow and said, "Oh; I am??"

"I think so," I replied. "You're frustrated because you don't know how to help yourself feel better lately."

"Yes."

"Well, if you're suffering, just recall that it doesn't last forever. It only lasts for a little while, and then it's gone. And I think you're doing a great job. I love you. If you need anything, you just ask me. And I will get it for you, okay? You just ask."

She spent many moments thinking about what I said, and then replied saying how much she knew that I loved her. But I had already told her before that God loved her so I didn't feel the need to restate this for her.

I'm so thankful for Christ and His saints that the family received the words at the funeral yesterday with satisfaction and gratitude.

32 comments:

goe said...

Michele,

No doubt your grandmother knew that you loved her, and that is the greatest gift you could have given in her suffering. Sounds like she was a wonderful person and I'm sure she knew she had a wonderful granddaughter.

You said: "She believed as Hebrews 9:22 says, that without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness for sins, but since Jesus did suffer and His blood was shed, we who know this have already become sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of His purchased possession, as Ephesians 1:13 says. That's you and me, if we've believed in Jesus's sufferings for us - even if it's not easy to understand.

Is it just that easy? Would be her question. Yes, eternal life is absolutely free.

Is it just that easy? I like asking the question, too.

One of the last times I spent with her I quoted John 6:47 "Most assuredly I say to you, whoever believes in me has everlasting life." I didn't have to say much to her, she nodded her head in agreement. Then later she was joyful and we talked a lot about family."

This should be a comforting testimony for you that she is with the Lord. I think it is even easier and more simple than we realize. "She nodded her head in agreement." This reminds me of Martha when Jesus asked her if she believed what He said. I don't think you have any reason to doubt that you will see her again with Jesus one day.

"It is just that easy? I like asking the question, too."

Michele, that's a question I've asked countless times in my life too. As hard as it sometimes is to believe, I'm convinced that it truly is that easy. If it wasn't, then no one could be saved.

Thanks for sharing this about your grandmother. Not that my opinion matters, but I think God has given you every reason to have complete peace about your grandmother that she is waiting for you in heaven-and that is the greatest comfort any of us can have about those we love.

Gary

Kc said...

May God continue to bless you and your family through this all. We will continue to remember you all in our prayers.

Diane said...

Michele,

My prayers and love are with you at this time. Your grandmother sounds like a very loving person. She has a very loving granddaughter. The verse you shared with her was wonderful.....

John 6:47 "Most assuredly I say to you, whoever believes in me has everlasting life."*
And then she nodded.

It really is that simple and that wonderful.

Which little girls in the picture are yours? They are all so beautiful and precious.

Praying that you will experience God's sweet comfort and peace at this time.

In Jesus' love,
Diane

Sanctification said...

Thanks Gary,

I'm revitalized by yours and Diane's and KC's comments.

When it comes to lack of assurance about being saved I wonder if there are not two kinds.

Type #1 This man both believes and is justified but also sometimes doubts. This is very normal - Christians who drift away from the Word forget what it says. They "need" to go back and read it again when they go through a hard time or a dry time. This reliance upon His promises is pleasing to God, and it is accomplished by pressing on in doubt.

Type #2 This man both believes and is justified but since then has always doubted. Never claimed assurance and never known it since. Even after a course through the bible they cannot arrive at assurance and they constantly wonder whether they're included. (Calvinism has the potential to create systemic doubt.)

(This is one of the things I've been thinking while watching the 630-comment thread @ FGT blog.... I've been listening to the statement that assurance is the essence of salvation. But after salvation, assurance can be lost and salvation cannot be lost. So it is very possible that people believe in Him for everlasting life in a moment, are born again, and never ever know from that point on whether or not they are going to be saved. It may become so normal to them that they actually receive teaching that this is true, and deny OSAS doctrine. If this is true then the worst of Calvinists are justified of the same stuff as FG people. Assurance is not proof of salvation or a test of being in the Body, is it?)

My grandma was Type #1; she had a normal lack of assurance of salvation, having the birds snatch the Word away, perhaps? (needing the basics over and over again due to poor exposure with believers who know the Word).

I am persuaded she was a believer before John 6:47 because she would ask "how can I know I am going to heaven?" and the answer that always satisfied her was "Jesus paid for your sins on the cross." (The high number of times she asked this question was the part in which I was saying "she never grew tired of hearing about it, that salvation is absolutely free.") In the cross was where her faith was, which is an excellent place to be. I do think that people can be saved without the Gospel of John. Now what she didn't have in the end of her life was assurance, which is what John 6:47 served most efficiently.

I'm moved how well the scriptures serve one another when it comes to "the gospel" that saves, which is also the gospel that sanctifies, after one is born again.

Speaking of "eternal life" and being born again....

Dr. Dillow was teaching in his book "Reign of the Servant Kings" that there are actually MANY locations in the NT where obtaining "eternal life" is conditional, predicated upon our obedience. This was a surprise to me and I'm changing my mind that it could not make sense to have eternal life as the center of the bullseye for our sanctification.

It does add quite nicely to other "COSF" bullseye gospel truths being used for justification (faith alone), and for sanctification (faith and also obedience). Those other bullseyes that serve well as the focal point for both justification and sanctification, are:

Christ crucified
Eternal life in Christ
1 Cor 15

Still learning, still reading & still listening.

Gary must she "believe that" like Martha did to obtain salvation? Is that what you're saying? There is no other bible truth that can justify her? I want all your critiques and I know you know that I don't know much but I want to tell you that I can handle it.

:) You are counted dear,
Michele

alvin said...

Hi Michele

I’m so proud of you, I think you did a wonderful job:)

“It’s as simple as resting your eternal wellbeing in Jesus hands”

And you got right to the heart of it with John 6:47. And when your Grandmother said to you “is it really that easy?” You know she was understanding what you were saying and you affirmed that it was just that easy:)

My Dad did a turn around and is doing well now. I read to him today the story of the woman at the well and sang him a few songs. I was able to feed him some yogurt.

It's all about the giving and receiving of a gift:)

Alvin :)

goe said...

Hi Michele,

You said: "(This is one of the things I've been thinking while watching the 630-comment thread @ FGT blog.... I've been listening to the statement that assurance is the essence of salvation. But after salvation, assurance can be lost and salvation cannot be lost. So it is very possible that people believe in Him for everlasting life in a moment, are born again, and never ever know from that point on whether or not they are going to be saved. It may become so normal to them that they actually receive teaching that this is true, and deny OSAS doctrine. If this is true then the worst of Calvinists are justified of the same stuff as FG people. Assurance is not proof of salvation or a test of being in the Body, is it?)"

I think you have made some great observations here Michele and I agree with you. No, I do not believe that assurance or lack of assurance Is "proof" of whether a person is really saved or not. I am convinced that there are many people who are saved but face a continual struggle with doubt and lack of assurance for the very reasons you have listed. There are probably even other reasons besides the 2 you have listed (e.g. psychological or emotional problems (instability).
The "type 1" and "type 2" reasons for lack of assurance are
extremely common I think.

The comment you have made here is so good I want to get back with you later to discuss it more. I did some reading last in a book called "The Doctrine of Grace in the Apostolic Fathers" by Thomas F Torrance. The thesis of this book is quite sobering and troubling. But I think it is relevant to what you are getting at in your comment.

One thing I'd like to comment on later is the difference between saying that "assurance is the essence of saving faith" and saying "assurance is OF the essence of saving faith." This is an important distinction that I'm noticing many people are missing. That word "OF" is very important. You might already know what I'm driving at but if not I'll explain later ok?

I know it hurts to loose your grandmother, but you do have reason to rejoice for her that her suffering is over forever and now she is experiencing the "eternal weight of glory" that
Paul wrote about.

God bless you today.

alvin said...

Hi Michele

I finally think you are getting it then I read your last post and I can see your still in a world of confusion.

Most people don’t believe that the GIFT of eternal life is REALLY a gift you can take FREELY.

You can find that out real quickly by just asking someone if they believe you can take it freely by just believing Jesus promise without having to follow Jesus to get it.

A true gift has no strings attached!

You can only know that you passed from death to life if your ASSURANCE at one time RESTED TOTALLY on that fact.

How in the world could you ever know you believed in Jesus for His gift if you never had assurance that you did. That would be just wishful thinking . . . .or I hope it's true . . .but just in case I'll work a little.

If you ALWAYS thought you had to DO something MORE then BELIEVE Jesus for His gift of eternal life then you have YET to receive His gift.

Michele you MUST receive it FIRST before you can receive it as a REWARD.

The Rich Young Ruler thought he was GOOD so thought he could inherit eternal life by his own righteousness.

Jesus had to make clear to him ONLY God is GOOD, and the purpose of the law was not to KEEP it but to shut his mouth to show him that he needed a PERFECT righteousness only God could give.

The Rich Young Ruler was putting the cart before the horse.

He needed to have a RIGHTOUSNESS that ONLY God has in order to get into Heaven and that can only be received as a GIFT.

What comes AFTER that fact does not MATTER if you don’t receive Jesus righteousness as a GIFT.

If anyone is still saying you have to have works (perseverance) in order to get into heaven then they have YET to receive a PERFECT RIGHTOUSNESS that ONLY God gives as a GIFT . . . . .you can’t work for it.

Remember this Michele eternal life must be received as a gift but once it is received it has endless potential because it is the life of Christ. Once received as a gift you can reap it as a reward. For instance the Apostle John who it was said Jesus loved. Why because John wanted to always be close to Jesus. So John had a richer experience of eternal life because Jesus Himself IS eternal life.

Alvin

P/s There is ONLY one bulls-eye if you don’t hit it your not even IN the house. When someone believes in Jesus for His gift of eternal life by simply believing they also are given a perfect righteousness from God and if they were NEVER to do another thing they would still go to heaven. Why? Because ONLY righteous people go to heaven NOT self righteous people. So your WORKS AFTER the FACT only have to do with how RICH you are when you get there:)

Rose~ said...

Michele,
I'm thinking of you as you process all of the emotions and other stuff surrounding your grandmother's funeral.

Such touching photos.

alvin said...

Only people with a perfect righteousness are going to make it to heaven.

So there are two ways you can get into heaven.

1. You have to be perfect! Then at the great white throne your perfect rightousness will be revealed when the books are opened your life will show you were perfect. Scripture: He will render to each one according to his deeds.” Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. Roman 2:6,7,13;Rev 20:12

2. Clothed with Christ righteousness that can ONLY be received as a GIFT. Rightousness 1 Cor 1:30,31; Rom 3:20-24 imputed rightousness. Romans 4:5 the ungodly who do not work are accounted rightous.


Score those who have got there by the #1 way . . . . . .0 Why? Romans 3:19,20

Anyone who makes it to heaven hit the bulls-eye #1 and MUST be received as a GIFT by simple faith.

alvin

goe said...

Michele,

Here is something Zane said in the article "Assurance is of the Essence of Saving Faith" in the JOTGES: "It is one of the great absurdities of theology that I can’t really know whether I believe God’s saving truth or not. Of course I can know whether I believe the same thing Martha believed. But if I do, I also know that I have eternal life. Therefore, assurance is of the essence of saving faith.

I need to add one proviso. I do not mean by any of this that a believer can never doubt his or her salvation. Nor do I mean that one’s faith cannot be lost. When John the Baptist asked, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?" (Matt 11:3), he was doubting his earlier conviction that Jesus was indeed the Christ. And Paul spoke of people whose faith had been overturned (2 Tim 2:18).

But what I do mean is this: at the moment of saving faith the believer is sure that he is eternally saved. I do not hold to the doctrine of the indefectibility of faith, as Reformed theologians do, or even as John Calvin did. I do hold to the indefectibility of God’s saving work in the believer."

I think that we can sometimes place so much emphasis on assurance that we loose sight of and give an unbalanced and skewed impression of what Zane is saying here, i.e. that at no time is our faith ever perfect (indefectible). Our faith is always subject to decay or failure. At no time is it ever without flaw or defect. Furthermore, at no time is our knowledge or understanding "indefectible". When you combine these factors with the incredible speed at which the human mind operates, it can make it difficult for some people to remember or pin-point the exact moment when they believed in Christ and had assurance of their salvation. I heard Zane discuss this one time and it gave me a different perspective on what he meant when he spoke of assurance being "of the essence of saving faith."

alvin said...

Hi Michele

If you could listen to Zanes message "Saved or in a State of Grace" I believe Zane nailed it.


I’ve probably listened to this message over a hundred times and I believe it is a Masterpiece! Zane clearly shows the difference between believing biblical words vr. Biblical truth and that God is not obligated to the first.

Here is the problem I see on these blogs communicating the truth because we can be using the SAME biblical words but meaning something COMPLETELY different.

Alvin :)

alvin said...

Hi Michele and Gary

I'm not concerned what soever about the MOMENT I was saved! I only care a about my testimony so I can use it to lead others to Christ. What is important to me is that I believe Jesus is the Christ NOW!!!!!

Because if I'm fighting against the truth that to simply believe Jesus for His gift of everlasting life then I'm not believing Jesus is the Christ NOW!

So it doesn't matter WHEN you believed that truth because the MOMENT you did you passed from death to life whether it was 50 yrs. ago or TODAY:)

The important thing is that you DID or DO!!!!!

I believe that Jesus is the Christ, that means I believe John 3:16 includes ME because I believed Jesus was telling the truth about the one who believes . . . .so that means ME!!!!

alvin :)

P/s To say anything else is to say Jesus lied . . . .and I know He didn't do that:) My total confidence is in Him that He told the truth.

alvin said...

There is something really wrong with those people who fight us tooth and nail on Jesus simple promise. Jesus knows He’s the One who made the promise of John 3:16. He is the One not some goofball down the street who says he is the Christ. The One in our bibles that made that promise is the One who will deliver on His word. If you don’t know you are in John 3:16 as one who believes or have never known, then why not? Do you doubt He can deliverer? Or, do you think “is it really that easy?” Either Jesus is a liar or He is telling the truth and that is WHAT the Scriptures say not me. By not believing Him we are calling Him a liar and I know I’m not about to do that:) Are you?

That means . . . .I KNOW!

goe said...

I want to add this to my last comment: Not only can the factors I mentioned above make it difficult for a person to pin-point when they had assurance, it could also make it difficult for them to even remember or be sure they have even had such a moment.

You said: "I am persuaded she was a believer before John 6:47 because she would ask "how can I know I am going to heaven?" and the answer that always satisfied her was "Jesus paid for your sins on the cross." (The high number of times she asked this question was the part in which I was saying "she never grew tired of hearing about it, that salvation is absolutely free.") In the cross was where her faith was, which is an excellent place to be. I do think that people can be saved without the Gospel of John. Now what she didn't have in the end of her life was assurance, which is what John 6:47 served most efficiently."

"the answer that always satisfied her was "Jesus paid for your sins on the cross." It seems clear to me that your grandmother had assurance of her salvation by looking to the cross and you are right to say that is "an excellent place to be."

On page 107 of "Absolutely Free" Zane says this: "Saving faith, we have seen, is like a single drink of living water which never needs to be repeated. It is like a single look at Jesus the Saviour, much as the Israelites looked at the brazen serpent in the desert and lived...

There is life in a look at the Crucified One,
There is life at this moment for thee;
Then look, sinner, look unto Him and be saved,
Unto Him who was nailed to the tree.

Look! look! look and live!
There is life in a look at the Crucified One,
There is life at this moment for thee."

"the answer that always satisfied her was "Jesus paid for your sins on the cross."

"In the cross was where her faith was, which is an excellent place to be."

It is clear that your grandmother had done what Zane was referring to when he said: "It is like a single look at Jesus the Saviour, much as the Israelites looked at the brazen serpent in the desert and lived." It sounds to me like she DID have assurance when looked to the cross. Even if she was confused at other times or by the teaching of her church she was certainly saved according to what you are saying. She had the right idea and that's what really matters.

I do agree with what Alvin said concerning Jody Dillow's comment about eternal life. Jody was not speaking about the gift of eternal life that is received by faith alone. He was referring to the fact that our EXPERIENCE of eternal life both now and in the eternal future in determined by our faithfulness and obedience. In other words, he was referring to the Judgement Seat of Christ and rewards or lose of rewards. If we are faithful and obedient we will experience eternal life "more abundantly."( Jn. 10:10) But the gift of eternal life we receive when we believe in Jesus is in no way conditioned upon faithfulness or obedience. The giving of the gift is based solely on the finished work of Christ for us, not our work for Him.

goe said...

Alvin,

I agree with you say here Alvin:

"I'm not concerned what soever about the MOMENT I was saved! I only care a about my testimony so I can use it to lead others to Christ. What is important to me is that I believe Jesus is the Christ NOW!!!!!

Because if I'm fighting against the truth that to simply believe Jesus for His gift of everlasting life then I'm not believing Jesus is the Christ NOW!

So it doesn't matter WHEN you believed that truth because the MOMENT you did you passed from death to life whether it was 50 yrs. ago or TODAY:)

The important thing is that you DID or DO!!!!!

alvin said...

I totally agree with "Bad" I mean Gary....we gonna ride horses together in heaven....heeheeeeeee

goe said...

Alvin,

I meant to say: "I agree with what you say here Alvin:"

alvin said...

We be on da same page bruder babe we know our names be written in heaven . . .dat be why we be a rejoicing TODAY!!!!! That what be called faith in what ALREADY be true:)

alvin said...

You all have a Great Day In the Lord :)

I'm a head'n out on rollers this morning . . . . .and I be a rejoicing all day long cuz da joy don't stay inside . . . .it be a spill'n out all over the place . . .heeeheeee

I was praising the Lord at work on last Sunday . . . .when I pointed to a speed sign which was 35mph and I told this fella that's the power of sin is the law! You see that sign and there is something in you that want's to break it. And the law demands perfection. You do 35 and a half you broke it. This man was a professing believer but was a little corn-fused . . . . .he said to me WOW THE LIGHT JUST WENT ON!

He realized he couldn't ever be good enough to get to heaven . . .da law had done shut his mouth . . . .heeeheeeeee

Sanctification said...

Hi Rose, Diane Alvin, KC and Gary,

I'm glad that you are interacting with the gospel I shared. I would not have posted this post about my grandma if I was too sensitive about her passing or about what she knew of God. I'm confident about my grandma, what I'm wanting is a little more input on some of the things I struggled with as I tried to write gospel passages into what I said. Yes... I am still dealing with her passing but it is compartmentalized (for me even though it's together in the post).

I appreciate each of you and I'll comment this evening. I'm hosting a CEF 5-day kids club this week, and I had 28 kids all to myself on Monday and 24 yesterday! There's a whirlwind to clean up after I walk them home! You might pray for the children - I saw many new kids come and some of them went into small groups to ask Christ to be their Savior! Pray that the other children who have not come yet will do as they said and come!

May the LORD bless you today, I'm fortunate to know you all!

alvin said...

Hi Michele

I'm not trying to be picky or anything but I think you got that a little backward. Having them to ask Christ to be their Savior. He already is the Savior of the world whether they believe it or not. The good news is BECAUSE He is! That's why He can give them the gift of eternal life because He has already paid for ALL their sin that's the GOOD NEWS!

Man has always thought he could say it better then God by inviting Jesus into your heart and such unbiblical terms. Which will cause little children confusion. It's better to give them the babe verses like John 3:16;4:10,13; 5:24; 6:47; 11:25-27. But use the cross as evidence WHY He can give a gift that can be taken freely:)

The Gospel of John is God's way of talking to unbelievers. Man ignores God's simple method and takes verses that are written to one who ALREADY believe and have everlasting life. This is so backwards it should be obvious . . .Lord have mercy on us when we make things MORE complicated then they are:(

The good news is that sin is no longer a barrier between God and man so they can take of the living water freely:)

alvin :)

goe said...

Alvin,

I agree with you about "asking Jesus to be your Saviour", "asking Jesus into your heart", praying a sinner's prayer, etc. etc.

There is not even one verse or biblical example anywhere in scripture that teaches this. These are all man-made substitutes for the only condition given in scripture which is "believe."

I use to pray or ask Jesus to save me all the time when I was young. I must have done it hundreds of times. But each time I did it my first thought would be: "Well, I wonder if He has saved me?" Since I still wasn't sure if I was saved, sooner or later I would do it again thinking that maybe I had not been sincere enough the other times. All the while I was simply not believing what He has already told the whole world: that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. Asking Jesus to save us or come into our hearts is not the same thing as believing in Him. Since it is nowhere taught in the bible I never cease to be amazed how widespread this method of evangelism is among Christians. Even in my church this is done with children sometimes. I have even evangelized people like this myself back when I was involved with Campus Crusade for Christ. They like to use Rev. 3:20 as a proof text for doing this but that verse has nothing to do with being saved or evangelism. It was written to people who were already saved and was calling them to return to fellowship with Christ by repenting of their sins.

For some strange reason the church in general just doesn't like that word "believe." But God's word sure likes it!

alvin said...

The man-made systems that we have all been weaned on are either Calvinistic or Arminian. And guess what both have in common?

They both rely on WORKS (perseverance) to get to heaven~!

That is the HOOK for both man-made systems.

With that mentality there is NO room for a Gift you can take FREELY:(

What exactly is the point of the HOOK?

Sin!

Jesus MUST be LORD and SAVIOR~!

In both man-made systems that MUST be true to get to heaven.

So nothing is free or a gift after all.

And guess what all this is based on ?

Feelings!

Inviting Jesus into your heart or making Jesus your personal Savior.

This whole system of thinking is based on that mentality “that eternal life can’t be taken freely.”

That is the BIG LIE~!

Because Jesus IS the Savior of the WHOLE world SIN is NOT a barrier to taking the GIFT of GOD FREELY:)

Calvinism and Arminianism are isms that would like you to think sin IS a barrier.

But, it isn’t . . . .you can take the living water even if you simply desire to~!

Surprise! surprise!

It really is free after all :)

Jesus has made it so easy a little child can believe His promise of life and be born again :)

Calvinism and Arminianism are the man-made BARRIERS to taking the living water FREELY:(

As Bob Wilkins has stated we need a complete paradigm shift away from these man-made systems that we have been weaned on.

I can hear them crying now~ oh but it’s not orthodox . . . .your thinking is NEW . . . . .No it’s right there in the Bible . . . .you just don’t SEE it OR want to see it.

alvin said...

I think where we get into trouble is when we try to get people to make a decision to believe something they are yet to believe. We put ourselves in the place of the Holy Spirit. It’s the Spirit through the word that persuades them of the truth and once they have been persuaded then they are convinced that it is true. Then there is no need for a prayer because they have already believed and are born again. So many of us look back to a decision we made when you can’t decide to believe something your yet to believe is true. So that sets up for failure and also to go by our feelings.

We need to make sure we are working with the Spirit and not according to some man-made system.

Off to work I go :)

Alvin :)

P/s Children can know if they believe if something is true, why force a decision on them before they have been convinced. Let the Holy Spirit do His work through the word of God. And why not use the ONLY book in the Bible that was written for that express purpose that the unbeliever may have life. It only makes perfect sense to me that we would use the milk of the word in the Gospel of John :)
Why start them out on feelings rather then the facts they believe?

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin,

Thanks a lot for the comments, and feel free to pick away. You said, "I'm not trying to be picky or anything but I think you got that a little backward. Having them to ask Christ to be their Savior."

Help me clean up my language, how would you word it in every day language?

Hi Gary,

You said, " Asking Jesus to save us or come into our hearts is not the same thing as believing in Him."

That's very true. And when our casual terminology like the kind I used gets used, it's like a wasted moment to preach the actual saving truth of the gospel.

Though on the other hand I appreciate the relational component of the other common sayings, the "asking to save us" and the "inviting Jesus to come into my heart." I would like to find a way to use the promise-only gospel and do so in a way where the word "believe" soaks way in deep, solemly, to avoid anything close to just "knowing."

And I think that mentioning the cross work and the risen Christ, as well as mentioning forgiveness for wrongdoings, as I did in this gospel I shared, helps deepen the opportunity that someone may "believe" and believe with assurance in John 6:47.

What do you think?

goe said...

Hi Michele,

First of all I've got to tell you, I just got thru watching Jack Nicholson and the Keyboard Kat. Is that kitty booking any gigs around the country? I want to hear more. It's not just the music I love, but that cat has a style and stage presence like I've never seen...and a great sense of dramatic timing too. I'm impressed to say the least! After watching that it's hard to get focused on theology. :)

You say: "And I think that mentioning the cross work and the risen Christ, as well as mentioning forgiveness for wrongdoings, as I did in this gospel I shared, helps deepen the opportunity that someone may "believe" and believe with assurance in John 6:47."

I completely agree with you!

You say: "Though on the other hand I appreciate the relational component of the other common sayings, the "asking to save us" and the "inviting Jesus to come into my heart." I would like to find a way to use the promise-only gospel and do so in a way where the word "believe" soaks way in deep, solemly, to avoid anything close to just "knowing."

It would be easy to get a child to ask Jesus to save them or invite Him into their heart, but what good what that do if they don't yet believe the Gospel is true? And if they DO believe it then they are already saved and it would be a contradiction for them to then ask Him to save them or invite Him into their heart, right? If they have believed in Him then those things are ALREADY true, so it would only be confusing to then ask them to do that because if they have understood that Jesus has given them eternal life when they believed they should already have assurance of that. What I think is more appropriate for a child who expresses faith in Jesus would be to ask them if they want to thank Him for what He has already done for them. As a new believer, that would seem to be a natural thing for them to do and it would even show them in a practical way that they have now begun a relationship with Him that is going to last forever. It would show them that Jesus wants them to talk with Him and introduce them to the relational component you mentioned.
Diane works with kids a lot and I bet she has some good ideas about how best to evangelize children. I'm sure she knows much more about this than me. Ultimately, it's the work of the HS in bringing them to believe just like it is for us. It's not something that can or should be manipulated out of them. Unfortunately, that's something that is often done with children.

Let me think about this some more. I know much more about working with teens than with young children.

Right now you've got me thinking more about the boogie kat.
Let me chew on this some more ok? I'm gonna hop over to youtube and see if I can find that party animal. :)

goe said...

Michele,

"I would like to find a way to use the promise-only gospel and do so in a way where the word "believe" soaks way in deep, solemly, to avoid anything close to just 'knowing.'"

I'm not sure why you would want to "avoid anything close to knowing." God wants us to "know" the truth. "Knowing" is often used in scripture as a synonym for "believing."

Look up these verses and you will see that "knowing" is a good thing, not something to "avoid anything close to."

Jn. 1:10. 28, 31, 33, 48
Jn. 3:2, 10, 11
Jn. 4: 10, 22, 25, 32, 42,
Jn. 5:32, 42
Jn. 6:42, 69
Jn. 7:17, 26, 27, 28
Jn. 8:14, 19, 28, 32, 37, 52,55
Jn. 9:12, 20,21, 24, 25,29,30,31
Jn. 10:4, 5, 14,15, 27, 38
Jn. 11: 22, 24, 42, 49,
Jn. 12:35, 50
Jn. 13:7, 17, 35
Jn. 14: 4, 5, 7, 17, 20, 31
Jn. 15:21
Jn. 16: 18, 30
Jn. 17:3, 23
Jn. 19: 10
Jn. 21:4, 15,16, 17, 24

You can see from this that "knowing" is certainly not something to be avoided as you say. It is even used as a synonym for believing something.
But not all knowledge is saving knowledge, just as all faith is not saving faith. What makes them saving or not saving depends upon WHAT IT IS that we "believe" or "know." As in:

Jn. 4: 10, 42
Jn. 6:69
Jn. 11:25-27
Jn. 17:3 cf 2 Pet. 3:18
Jn. 20: 30,31
1 Jn. 5:1; 9-13

I hope this helps. Let me know what you think.

goe said...

Michele,

In other word, God wants the unbeliever to "know" or "believe" two things:

1) Who Jesus is
2) That we have everlasting life when we "know" or "believe" who He is.

Jn. 4:10, 42
Jn. 6:69
Jn. 11:25-27
Jn. 20:31
1 Jn. 5:1; 9-13
Jn. 17:3
Matt.16: 13-18--Peter's confession of faith that Jesus is the Christ is the "rock" upon which the church is built. It has ALWAYS been the very FOUNDATION of the Christian faith. Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ and he knew he had everlasting life by believing in Jesus. If a person has NEVER at anytime KNOWN or BELIEVED these two things they have NEVER been born again. To believe in Jesus for everlasting life is what it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ-- as Jesus explained to Martha in Jn. 11:25-27 cf Jn. 17:3

Jules said...

Thanks for sharing the moving stories about your grandma's life, your time with her and her funeral. I'm glad you took the opportunity to share with everyone that day and through your blog. Don't worry about being perceived as a feminist! It's not a bad thing ;)

alvin said...

Hey Gary, EXCELLENT POSTS!!!Very good Scriptures to back it up:)

Hi Michele



You said:

Hi Alvin,

Thanks a lot for the comments, and feel free to pick away. You said, "I'm not trying to be picky or anything but I think you got that a little backward. Having them to ask Christ to be their Savior."

Help me clean up my language, how would you word it in everyday language?






The Gospel of John focuses on the life death issue. It is written specifically for unbelievers that they may have life (John 20:31).



Michele those little children have death and Jesus wants to give them life. To “know” God is to have everlasting life (John 17:3). But they MUST know Him as the Christ. That means they MUST know the gift and the Giver as Jesus said to the woman at the well “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asked you ‘Give Me a drink’ you would have asked Him and He would have given you everlasting life.



To “ask” is to believe (John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.





I think our greatest evidence that Jesus is the Christ is the cross! It speaks of God’s GREAT love and PROVISION for everyone by dying for their sins that He may give them eternal life FREELY.



I AGREE with Gary how you dealt with your Grandmother was EXCELLENT by showing her from Hebrews Jesus provision and than going to John 6:47 to show the simplicity of being born again. But I believe you can show all that in the simple childlike verse of John 3:16 and not have to go anywhere else. That verse includes everyone and shows not only the provision but the love of God and the gift of God. And perishing shows their need of life.





I liked Luis true story of how when he was a young boy and went to Sunday school with a friend. The Sunday school teacher offered them a silver dollar. Luis didn’t believe that he would really give it away free. Another little boy jumped up and got the silver dollar. The Sunday school teacher explained the free gift of everlasting life and how Jesus had paid for it with His life. Even though Luis ended up in a boys reformatory he knew that he had everlasting life because Jesus had given it to him freely. This is just one example, Jesus used new birth with Nicodemus and living water with the woman at the well. Jesus told the woman at the well FIRST she needed to know the gift of God because He knew to know the gift of God was to have life in His name.

I remember at the care center having presents wrapped for all the people as a picture of the gift Jesus wants to give them freely.



For me a twelve year old and a great sinner I made connection with Jesus dying for my sins. By knowing that He paid for my sins so I could go to heaven I was believing in Him as the Christ the One who had guaranteed my eternal wellbeing.



So meet them where they are and bring them to the Christ:)



We know their most basic need is life, and that is what Jesus wants to give them the gift of life:)



So Michele you come up with the attention getter but make sure they all have heard what the gift is and Who it is who guarantees their eternal destiny.



Then when they know Jesus as the Christ they can rejoice because they know their names are written in heaven:)



Alvin :)

alvin said...

Something to ponder:)

Why did Jesus tell the woman at the well she needed to KNOW the GIFT of God FIRST and then who He was?



Because his name has content . . . . .life! Look at John 20:31



To know Jesus as the Christ is to be born of God . . .Look at 1 John 5:1a



The living water was the knowledge of His person.



Drank (believed) was to have life in His name.



The living water was water that produced water, once drank Jesus said it would spring up into everlasting life.



This is why we always need to make sure people know the gift of God because without that content they don’t have life in His name and therefore do not know Him as the Christ.

alvin:)

Missy said...

This is a very touching post, Michele. My prayers are for you and the seeds planted.

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