Thursday, April 30, 2009

Secondary Separationism, Part 2

Where are the Scriptures which Teach This?

On pages 250-251 of his text, "Biblical Separation" [1], Dr. Pickering quotes several of his opponents to this teaching, those who admit for example, "The scriptures say nothing about secondary separationism," and, "There is no such thing as first-degree, second-degree separation, etc." Pickering acknowledges that secondary separationism is not labeled specifically as such, in the scriptures. But that's not the end of it: Pickering also has to justify his teaching past this confession that it is no where directly taught in scripture.

Pickering insists that the practice can be drawn as a valid principle from the following scripture:

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received from us.... And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed" (2 thess 3:6, 14).

Pickering acknowledges that in context the Thessalonian Christians were merely shirking their responsibilities and had become busybodies. He then immediately rationalizes upon this scripture, saying (on page 255): "The question is this: Is that all this passage teaches? Does the principle go beyond the specific situation evident at Thessalonica, and should it be applied in other situations as well?" He then moves right in to pointing out Paul had authority from God to teach the truth. And he points out that those idle brothers, in their disregard of Paul, were called "disorderly." Through this simple but poor connection, Pickering gives his readers the impression that 2 Thess. 3 is calling all those who reject Paul's written authority, those who are idle.

Rather, I ask you to take a look at this passage and see if it is not saying that those who Paul is calling "disorderly" are those practicing idleness. It is the demonstration of idleness, which Paul is commanding the Thessalonicans to take note of, and withhold their company from.

Pickering nevertheless insists that "Their improper actions resulted from their incorrect grasp of doctrine." Friends, this next unabridged paragraph (pg. 256-257) is where you are going to see the door open up for a moral kind of legalism in the practice of secondary separationism....

The main question among separatists is this: Does this portion of scripture apply only and exclusively to people who leave their work, sponge off other believers, and live idle lives that contribute to spiritual confusion? Certainly this is the context of the passage as it is written. Is it not true, however, that the principle clearly seen here applies to other situations? The principle is this: When our brethren do things that are wrong - caused by an incomplete knowledge of or deliberate disobedience to some teaching of Scripture - we should not merely continue to fellowship with them as those who have done nothing wrong.... It is the principle of maintaining a pure walk that should be stressed. It is the principle of refusing to condone, honor, or utilize those who continually and knowingly are following a course of action that is harmful to other believers and to the welfare of the churches.

Can he defend his interpretation with other scriptures? He had none others. Following this look into 2 Thess. 3, Pickering quotes the commentary of other respected fundamentalists who happen to agree about this interpretation from the text, and concludes, "We cite them, however, to show that there have been a host of men through the years who have believed that the practice of so-called secondary separation has Biblical support" (pg. 261).

[1] Pickering, Ernest & Houghton, Myron. Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church. Schaumberg, Illinois: Regular Baptist Press; 2008.

Secondary Separationism, Part 1

Secondary Separation: What is it?

In his book titled, "Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church" [1], Dr. Pickering explains the teaching of secondary separation. This is the position that maintains a man must not only separate from apostates. There is a second degree of separation one must take, by withdrawing from any fundamentalist who is known to cooperate in any way with apostates.

(Remember, in a previous post Pickering refuses to use the term "heretics" for those who err doctrinally; his word for those who teach doctrinal error is "apostates." Yes - in a future post we will look into this term categorizing those who are reckoned "apostate" according to Dr. Pickering... definitions are on the way soon!)

For illustration.... Imagine that you're a separationist. Though you may personally benefit from a relationship with an erring Christian, by affiliation you are not permitted to cooperate with or minister to such an erring (unrepentant) Christian.

But there's more. If you choose to invite your erring Christian, to, say for example give a speech on any range of other doctrines in which you are in agreement, you then become subject to separation yourself -- you will be separated from, by your fellow separationists. Separationists would invoke the second degree of separation, upon you.

A concise definition is on page 251:

Coined in the aftermath of the fundamentalist-modernist controversy, the term "secondary separationist" refers to those who will not cooperate with apostates or with other evangelical believers who aid and abet the apostates by their continued organizational or cooperative alignment with them.

Pickering teaches why he believes secondary separation is necessary. In his book he explains how it is critical to maintain the purity of the truth through our times. To accomplish this, each one of us must take a clear stand against those who have become apostate. In addition, we must not keep company with those who do not also withdraw from apostates. If a teacher be apostate, the testimony of the truth is being attacked. How can we fellowship with those who are an enemy of truth? An apostate teacher may be a true believer. He may also be a gifted and many times accurate teacher; however he is nevertheless teaching some false doctrine. He may be well meaning. But we have to consider how he spreads untruths to the unsuspecting.

Pickering goes on to insist that those who are younger in the faith have no way of knowing for themselves whether what they have heard could be false, and they will assume it is true because of his position as a teacher. To permit a man to teach what is known to be error, implies to others that there is nothing wrong in him doing so, or at least not sufficiently serious enough to do anything about it.

Dr. Pickering has made a checklist to help his readers consider their personal responsibility to not only separate from apostates, but also from fundamentalists who will not keep their own fellowship pure from apostate teachers. I take this directly from his text, pages 276-277:

1 - Am I honoring God by my fellowship? "Whatever therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Cor 10:31). When a believer remains in an apostate denomination, that believer is supporting the Lord's enemies through is or her money and presence. Is that believer honoring the Lord by "staying in"?

2 - Am I aiding or encouraging someone to continue a walk of disobedience? If a great preacher continues to remain within a group largely influenced by apostates and a separatist church has him speak, is this occasion helping or hindering others? Having them participate with us is not the way to assist them from the path of disobedience.

3 - Will my cooperation with a person or organization give the impression that I condone a lackadaisical attitude toward apostasy and compromise? Did not the writer of Proverbs say, "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil" (prov 8:13)? Is the support of apostasy, its publications, schools, spokesperson, and missions evil? If it is, do I as God's child truly hate it?

4 - Will others under my leadership or influence be tempted to further compromise or be confused or weakened in their testimony because of my actions? We cannot live to ourselves. We are responsible for our brothers and sisters as well.

5 - What long-range effects will cooperation have? As previously noted, Bob Jones Sr. often said, "Never sacrifice the permanent on the altar of the immediate."

[1] Pickering, Ernest & Houghton, Myron. Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church. Schaumberg, Illinois: Regular Baptist Press; 2008.

Monday, April 27, 2009

The Teaching of "Secondary Separation"; Introduction

I've taken note on a legalistic characteristic comprising a substantial portion of the free grace community both on and offline. Paul called the infusion of legalism in the Galatian region at that critical time in their history, being "thrown into confusion". Confusion does seem to abound for FG, does it not? At least it appears the case in their interrelationships.

This infusion may have drawn many to mere confusion. However, for those holding staunchly, where you discern the practices and affects of legalism, you will also find the doctrines fueling it (just as you would with any other schism), if you dig around a bit. With Pickering's text, I am persuaded to have found one centralized source of FG legalism (though there may be two). It was the landmark nature and widespread adoption of his text which makes it a central point of examination.

In particular I wish to draw attention to possibly the most controversial portion of Pickering's teachings on biblical separation: The Teaching of Secondary Separation. As I said in the last comment in the previous post, I have always learned and participated better when the controversial aspects were discussed at the front. I realize that it goes in backward order; starting with the man-made assertions and working back to scripture, and I apologize for the sense of alarm that it might generate. Regardless if the teaching is biblical, it is popular and widespread and for this reason alone I think it is important to investigate.

With all kinds of biblical commands that attend godliness, they can be taken too far. They may morph as far as their Spiritual essence is concerned, creating bondage in the stead of health.

Take the command for water baptism, as an example of how any command may be used for good (Spiritual) or harm (legalism).

I've seen obedience to the command to be baptized in water, be Spiritual in effect to those who obey it. My own church is one such place - praise God. But I've also been a part of other churches, and witnessed for myself how the command to be baptized is used as a subtle tool of slavery and judgment within, and damnation to those without. People are slowly harmed by legalistic theology. Soon falls a trend of members escaping, or burning-out of living for God. With the trend the need is born to express to one another the legalism present in the command - more - its legalistic emphasis within or behind the command. Books need to be written. It takes skill to explain how a command from scripture crosses the line from being healthy, to being harmful (legalistic). It takes discernment and a gift of teaching to expose for newcomers, the nuances where the command had become obsession in self merit as opposed to gratitude for the accomplishments of Christ. Those sorts of books have been written - in the case of refuting the baptism-based legalistic doctrines.

This dichotomic usage of the command to be baptized expresses a principle concerning all commands, including the teaching of biblical separation. Separation is taught in the scriptures and is meant for our benefit. The question to ask, however in my thinking, is this: How do you discern when it has crossed the line, promoting legalism? Would an investigator take heed and note when the feel-good, sounds-right, stops becoming "good" and stops becoming "right"? It will require the whole counsel of God, and an understanding of the essentials of legalism - what legalism is as a generality.

Thursday, April 23, 2009

"Heresy:" Pickering & Swindoll

In times passed it has been a confidence-booster to read only the scriptures long before consulting man-made commentary. I've been reading just the scriptures used in Separationist philosophy for awhile now. Recently I posted at Dr. Lybrand's Free Grace blog a comment exploring what the Bible has to say in definition of "heresy." Click here to read that comment.

By publicly sharing my conviction, it made me feel the committment of it all. It has become time for me, at least, to visit other writings, and test how far off my concept is compared to the experts.


Dr. Pickering's book titled, "Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church" was originally published in 1979. According to Kevin Mungons who wrote the Foreword to the Second Edition, Pickering had "come to write a book that became the standard defense of fundamentalist ideas" [1]. Before it, there was no established text on the subject.

The word "heresy" is addressed in Biblical Separation, but to my reading I have only found one page where it is mentioned. It says on page 191,

It should be carefully noted that heresy (using the term in the strict sense in which it is used in the New Testament) is not apostasy. The word "heresy" is used only in Titus 3:10 and refers to a selfish choice that results in party divisions within the church. It emphasizes carnal troublemaking, not theological error.


Pickering's idea of false teaching and preaching falls altogether into the category of -- "apostasy" -- not "heresy." I may publish some excerpts soon on the subject of "apostasy," for, to Pickering this is where we would take the popular question of "what constitutes heresy?"

Okay. Now off to visit Swindoll.


In 1990 Chuck Swindoll published a text called, "The Grace Awakening: Believing in Grace is One Thing; Living it is Another" Swindoll addresses what the word "heresy" means on pages 104-105: [2]

Legalists were disturbing others and distorting the truth as they spread doctrinal heresy. Their heretical message was that the Galatian Christians should let Moses finish what Christ began. ... We continue to hear that "different gospel" to this day and it is a lie. It is heresy. ... The problem is, it appeals to the flesh. Paul's twice repeated reaction to the one who introduced that doctrinal heresy is "Let him be accursed!" This is Paul's way of saying the person is doomed! The original word is anathema! It is the strongest single Greek term for condemnation. Nevertheless, the heresy goes on. Most every cult you could name is a cult of salvation by works. ... Please allow me to be straight with you: Stop tolerating the heretical gospel of works!

Both confirm the two variations of which I took note. In the case that readers have not read the original comment I made regarding "heresy," here were are two variations: One - the use of the word in doctrinal matters, designates legalism. Two - in non-doctrinal matters the word designates opposed camps of Christians attempting to be treated first. This would be opposed to Christ's teachings "For many who would seek to be first shall be last, and the last, first." It also is hypocritical to the practice which is under dispute in the context - The Lord's Supper - at which event Christ washed the feet of the disciples, setting an example for them to follow.

I do not observe further apparent liberty in using the word beyond those two variances. I should say, however, that the second variance may have many uses beyond the context's discussion of the Lord's Supper.


Can "heresy" mean what it is popularly said to mean?

Can it mean an invasion of untruths against any biblical doctrine?

I don't know what freedom there is to use the word in this generalized manner, since the scripture only uses it to reference the schismatic effect of the teachings of legalism. Legalism is so easy to fall back into. John Maisel, with all his incredible life-experience in church-planting, confirms this sort of disappointing phenomena in his FGA National Conference presentation. I can imagine why Paul wished to be rid of it, yet it kept creeping back in, even affecting Peter for awhile. If there is truly a "Christian's slippery slope," I imagine legalism would be a top contender for destructive things to keep one on constant lookout.

I am very interested to hear what others think "heresy" means in the scriptures.

[1] Pickering, Ernest & Houghton, Myron. Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church. Schaumberg, Illinois: Regular Baptist Press; 2008.

[2] [2] Swindoll, Charles R. The Grace Awakening. Walker & Company, New York; 1990.

Thursday, April 16, 2009

Dr. Lybrand Welcomes Questions

There's been a few emails asking where it is that Dr. Lybrand, FGA President has joined the comment thread here. He wants to interact for a short time and answer questions. I am very thankful that he has offered to interact on the internet. Of course there are other locations including his own newly started FG blog, here.

He has left a few comments thus far in this thread, here. Scroll down to the bottom....

Please feel welcome to leave a comment or question. I apologize for not being around much to publish the comments. My computer needed a new part and I think everything is back in order now.... :D

Sunday, April 12, 2009

My Introduction to Separationism

Legalism of Belief vs. Separationism

Before Zane Hodges coined the phrase "Theological Legalism" I was describing the same thing calling it "Legalism of Belief" here at my blog. Being someone who has been in and out of cults many times I got quickly tired with seeing the scriptures abused, through their use in endless variety of arrangements to show me that "Because you don't believe this, this, and this just as I do, you cannot have been saved!"

Well, thanks be to God that I am able to recognize that my salvation is not predicated upon precise or advanced doctrines that can only come through being a student of the Word for many years - though there are still many Christians who either believe or else act as if this is the case. What I am more interested in at this time, is to examine the same allegation made by those who might measure who is walking blameless before God by faith, through orthodox beliefs and confessions. Again, they would say to me, "Because you don't believe this, and this and this just as I do, you cannot be in right relationship with God!"

I'd like to think it is true, from the foundation I have so far in the Word, that believers who have fellowship with God by faith in the Spirit, also have rights to full fellowship with one another in the Body of Christ. What do you think? Would you place any restriction on fellowship with such an obedient believer?

Dr. Pickering, in his landmark text called, "Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church," did. On the grounds of one requirement if not more (I'm still grasping this as I share this in blog posts). He has found reasons to bar from fellowship other Christians who are walking in the Spirit. And he bases this upon whether they confess or teach orthodoxy.

Is Dr. Pickering justified in teaching this? I want to lay out his concepts and let readers conclude. I tentatively plan to post brief excerpts from his text on these topics:

First Separation
Second Separation
The Holiness of God

And then as a summary, I would like to of course examine the scriptures to see what they say... without all the commentary.

Concluding Comments

I want to re-submit two comments of mine in a post last week at my blog: First; at this time I am convinced that there is a conservative Baptist disagreement in how seriously Christians should retreat from error. Therefore, it may be a free grace problem. I'm not sure if that's right but I'm hoping to explore if this might be the case.

The second comment I resubmit is that I have had a change of heart about my own "legalism of belief" perspective. There came a place for me to rescind, probably in conversations with Kev, that doctrines are designed for my sanctification, not my bondage. The world may use the Word of God for evil but I should not give off aires that His Truth is anything short of freedom to the child who is growing up in the LORD. I'm not bashful to admit that I went too far.

Also: (this is just me, but) it is interesting to note that a 298-page textbook can be written on a topic which includes... what, maybe 15 relevant scriptures, total? How can it be drawn out to fill so much space - I wonder this, then wonder the same thing of all the other texts which have done the same thing on the same short supply of biblical mandate. And then to think that some Baptists will set these books out as the markers for why they do what they do as they engage in ministry. But, I am learning, as I post through this. Which is most unlike the educated reader that my blog most fortunately takes now and then. I pay forward gratitude if or when they should contribute in explaining things if I would overlook something significant.

Friday, April 10, 2009

A Worthy Intermission

Praise the LORD who shares His righteousness with mere men.

Thank You for the suffering You bore for my sake.

Tuesday, April 07, 2009

Comments on FGA disassociation from GES

This morning I received the Free Grace Alliance (FGA) Newsletter in my inbox. Part of that letter addressed the FGA's new position regarding the Grace Evangelical Society (GES). It declares

The Free Grace Alliance is not associated with the Grace Evangelical Society and does not endorse the GES Gospel (also referred to as "crossless" or "promise only" by some). We invite those who share our heart for the Gospel's clarity and declaration, of both the Person and Work of Christ, to join hands with us.

The newsletter says in a previous paragraph,

This newsletter is really just a quick update about a few strategic items we want you to know about for both prayer and conversation. As you know we are collecting and growing a community of folks who understand and care about Free Grace. Free Grace is that view that recognizes that the Gospel is 'all of grace'---and in particular---that it is 'faith alone in Christ alone' that wins the day. Free Grace has a long history and a number of flavors, but in it all, true Free Gracers preserve the gospel clarity for each generation. Thanks for being a part of this Movement & tell your friends about us; they may want to pitch in too!

"Discussion, But Not Association"
(These topical concepts would be accurate if in reverse; no discussion, but association.)

This newsletter does not bode well for the survival & propagation of free grace theology (FGT). Several reasons:

1 - Discussion is not Complete. Regarding the composition of the Content of Saving Faith (COSF), not all ideas have been explored and researched. Many workshops and main presentations at the GES National Conference last week were direct address to what has been published in recent months on various blogsites. This is evidence of both need for dialogue and interest in dialogue. Other evidences of both need and interest in dialogue, include the long list of comments and articles being published on the internet at various blogs. Those interested in considering the truth regarding the COSF and the precise content of the gospel, addictively read articles published by their theological opposition, think upon them and then write their replies in comments where they are welcomed to do so. On top of all this, at this time there is a gospel from 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Corinthians 1, and the Gospel of John. Within those three camps there are further fractionizations. Some people take most, but not all, of 1 Cor 15. Others have created similar but not identical biblical syntheses on the COSF. All this is to add upon the testimony of some who have testified that in 2007 there were a total of seven versions on the precise content of the gospel, on the table, for discussion. These truths and their proponents do not disappear just because of today's decision for separation.

2 - Association is Critical for Ministry. You may notice the word "association" being used above in the newsletter from the FGA. Be aware that this is a tip to Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church doctrine on what is known as "biblical separation." There are some orthodox, evangelical, free grace people whose foremost allegiance is to obey this doctrine above all other considerations. In fact, according to some IFB leaders, discussion is actually a sin. It has already been established that many important figures influencing FGA leadership are IFB in denominational adherence. With this kind of historical association, and today's report of dialogue being cut short for the sake of "protecting" the truth of the gospel, it does not lend a favorable impression that IFB doctrine (on biblical separation) is not the FGA's foremost factor of solidarity.

For more information on this issue, see previous articles:

The Debate Underneath What is "Crossless"
A Testimony of Exit
Baptist History
Sanctification Through Doctrine: IFBs

If the FGA is associated with any one organization, which one would it be? It would be the GES, of course. Last week I was told that of any organization, the GES is the most successful at redeeming people from Lordship Theology. These two organizations, the FGA and the GES, share and exchange teachings and teachers. I was just assured last month that the FGA was and is designed as the place to where all discussion of theological differences would we welcomed and find their home. Is this the truth? It does not seem so today. I was also convinced by speaking directly to FG leaders that the GES is the organization which writes the theology and the FGA the organization which promotes the theology. The two organizations, by reputable testimony and common sense, cannot do without one another. They are associates and partners by every measure. Though with this news perhaps they will be seeking to replace each other in these roles?

3 - Money and Reputation. The most troubling issue of all is the one I see most clearly, being a nobody, who hangs out with nobodys. FGT has in many places gained a reputation of being a divisive teaching. That's its past. What will be its future? If the churches which fund the FGA look at the internet and decide they want none of this trouble, they will not pledge their money to the organization. No money, no connecting and equipping (through sending pastors and hosting conferences). No conferences, no training. No training (in doctrine such as the integrity of being saved by faith alone in Christ alone), no conversions. Evangelical Christianity will not hear of truths such as eternal rewards, or will fail to believe them as authentic, viable, or most importantly Spiritual.

4 - This debate is not "lethal." There are theological issues which should be separated, over. This is not one. Separation doctrine should be designed only for those teachings which undermine either justification or sanctification (Galatians 3). The disagreement over the precise content of the gospel message affects neither. To argue otherwise says that God cannot save despite human mistakes in the presentation, or uneducation in the presentation, but this is not true. J.B. Hixson admits that people become saved without the precise content. Antonio da Rosa admits that error on the presentation of the gospel, meaning the error belonging to those in opposition to him in FG circles, is "not lethal." By these admissions, and by the obvious truth that the gospel has been preached and people have been becoming saved for centuries, how can this debate be a "crisis"? Helpful? Yes. A noble task to define precisely what the gospel is and is not? Yes. What could be a blessing has turned into a curse instead.

Meanwhile, the LORD has provided the context for defending the purity of the gospel and very few are attending and obeying God in equal time and effort according to His much more challenging command. This command is for forbearance at some point and at some level. Yes, forbearance. How far will the fractionization preoccupation be put to practice? There will be nothing left. If everyone separates from everyone else who does not agree with them, today, or in three year's time (as we've given this issue thus far), we lose our testimony of fellowship with an unseen Savior.

Phil 1:3-18
I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.
Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

I don't know what Lordship Salvation guy would buy that I was capable of listening and reading the scriptures with him if I couldn't endure in discussion with those who think the most like me, in my own belief system.

Monday, April 06, 2009

Latreuo and Proskyneo in the NT

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ is a created being, an angel, and since He is not God but simply a 'god,' it is wrong to worship Him.

If one might get ahold of the New World Translation Interlinear Greek New Testament it becomes an educational thing to observe a convenient translation of "worship" in the Greek, as simple "obeisance" for Jesus but the powerful translation of "worship" where Jehovah is mentioned in context. There is but one word meaning either "worship" or else "obeisance" -- proskyneo. By observing how the writers of the New Testament used the word proskyneo we might be able to determine if Jesus was intended to be worshiped just as Jehovah God.

This article also examines the usage of the Greek word latreuo, as it relates to this issue of worship, reverence and obedience to another.

First: Regarding "service": In these passages, note how “latreuo” (service) is rightfully only given to God (alone it says, referring to the godhead YHWH), and to Jesus:

Matt 4:10 “Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and (LATREUO) serve him only.'””

Romans 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served (LATREUO) created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.”

Rev 22:3 “No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve (LATREUO) him.”

(John 12:26 “Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant will also be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”)

Acts 7:42, 43 “But God turned away and gave them over to the worship (LATREUO) of the heavenly bodies. ... ‘Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Babylon.’”

Second: Regarding "worship": It is significant to notice usage, by author. The following passages tell readers to "proskyneo" God alone, yet also demonstrate proskyneo being rightfully given to Jesus:

By the author Luke:

Luke 4:8 “Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship (PROSKYNEO) the Lord your God and serve him only.'"”

Luke 24:49-53 “’I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’
When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.”

Acts 10:25-26 “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence (PROSKYNEO). But Peter made him get up. ‘Stand up,’ he said, ‘I am only a man myself.’"

Acts 7:40-43 “They told Aaron, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don't know what has happened to him!' That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honor of what their hands had made. But God turned away and gave them over to the worship (LATREUO) of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:
    'Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel? You have lifted up the shrine of Molech and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship (PROSKYNEO). Therefore I will send you into exile' beyond Babylon.”

By Matthew:

Matt 4:10 “Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship (PROSKYNEO) the Lord your God, and serve him only.'””

Matt 2:2 “...Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, ‘Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship (PROSKYNEO) him.’"

Matt 2:11 “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him.”

Matt 8:2 “A man with leprosy came and knelt before (PROSKYNEO) him and said, ‘Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.’"

Matt 9:18 “While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before (PROSKYNEO) him and said, ‘My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.’"

Matt 14:33 “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’"

Matt 15:22, 24-25 “A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, ‘Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.’” ... “He answered, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.’ The woman came and knelt before (PROSKYNEO) him. ‘Lord, help me!’ she said.”

Matt 20:20 “Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down (PROSKYNEO), asked a favor of him.”

Matt 28:9, 17 “Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him.” ... “Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him; but some doubted.”

By Mark:

Mark 5:2, 6 “When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him.” ... “When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees (PROSKYNEO) in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, ‘What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!’"

By John:

John 4:21, 24 “Jesus declared, ‘Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship (PROSKYNEO) the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.’ ... ‘God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship (PROSKYNEO) in spirit and in truth.’"

John 9:37-38 “Jesus said, ‘You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.’ Then the man said, ‘Lord, I believe,’ and he worshiped (PROSKYNEO) him.”

Rev 16:2 “The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped (PROSKYNEO) his image.”

Rev 19:20 “With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped (PROSKYNEO) his image.”

Rev 9:20 “The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping (PROSKYNEO) demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.”

Rev 13:8 “All inhabitants of the earth will worship (PROSKYNEO) the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

Rev 13:15 “He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship (PROSKYNEO) the image to be killed.”

Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship (PROSKYNEO) the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

The author of Hebrews:

Heb 1:6 “And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, ’Let all God's angels worship (PROSKYNEO) him.’"

Heb 11:21 “By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped (PROSKYNEO) as he leaned on the top of his staff.”

(Gen 47:31 in the Septuagint: “Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshiped (PROSKYNEO) as he leaned on the top of his staff.” Here, YHWH receives proskyneo without prostration, and in 1 kings 1:47, YHWH receives proskyneo with prostration, so actual bowing may not be required for giving proskyneo.)


Here are the summaries of when service and worship is given according to each book, and then according to author:

ACTS proves YHWH deserves worship and service righteously, and parts of creation, mere men, or false gods or idols, do not.

MATTHEW proves YHWH and Jesus deserves worship righteously, and Satan does not.

MARK proves Jesus did not correct or rebuke Satan’s emmissaries from worshiping him.

HEBREWS proves Jesus and YHWH both righteously receive worship.

REVELATION proves Jesus and YHWH both righteously receive worship, and angels do not.

JOHN proves Jesus and YHWH both righteously receive worship.

LUKE proves Jesus and YHWH both righteously receive worship.

ACTS + LUKE together prove YHWH and Jesus both righteously receive worship, and parts of creation, mere men, false gods, and idols, do not.

JOHN + REVELATION together prove Jesus and YHWH both righteously receive worship, and angels, demons, idols, images, and the beast do not.

Sunday, April 05, 2009

Jesus vs. YHWH: Titles & Attributes

Jesus vs. YHWH: Scripture

(This is written as an apologetic against the Jehovah's Witnesses' claim that Jesus is not God, only the Father is God, alone, and Jesus is merely a lower-case "god" -- an angelic ruler.)

According to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, the name “YHWH” in the Old Testament can only refer to God the Father, never God the Son, Jesus Christ. In this paper I attempt to examine various titles and attributes of YHWH in the Old Testament, and compare them with the titles and attributes of Jesus in the New Testament. I have found instances where these qualities have been exclusively ascribed to Jesus alone in the New Testament scriptures, or, exclusively ascribed to the Father God alone in the Old Testament, yet considered together their claims of exclusivity make for a contradiction (if one rejects modalism and agrees that Jesus and the Father are two separate persons). Only in believing that Jesus is YHWH as the Father is YHWH, can all these passages be comprehended....

One may also notice in this paper some examinations upon other JW distinctives in their understanding of Jesus Christ. The JWs believe that Jesus helped in creation, but must be known as a created being. They do not think Jesus is eternal like Jehovah. There are several specific names reserved for Jehovah God alone. One of them is "I AM" and another is "The Lord God Almighty." The JW's New World Translation version of the scriptures have translated all worship into reverence for Jesus Christ because Jehovah alone may be worshiped. A JW would be especially offended or altered to learn that Jesus Christ is called "Almighty." However there is scriptural evidence to suggest that that name of “Almighty,” "I AM," and the name of “YHWH” refers to the God Jesus Christ as much as it does the Father.

If Jesus is not YHWH God, then the following similitudes must be explained and justified.

Titles and names the two both hold:

1) Counselor:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 [italics added]

“All this comes from YHWH Almighty, wonderful in counsel and magnificent in wisdom.” Is 28:29

“Then Manoah inquired of the angel of YHWH, ‘What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?’ He replied, ‘Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding [Also translated, ‘’is wonderful’].’ ... ‘We are doomed to die!’ he said to his wife. ‘We have seen God!’” Judges 13:17,18,22

“Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power.” Prov 8:14

“’All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have said to you.’” john 14:25-26

“’And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of truth.’” john 14:16

“’But I tell you the truth: It is for your own good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. ... But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from me what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.’” John 16:13-15

“’And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’” matt 28:20

“’Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for YHWH your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.’” deut 31:6

“’For where two or three come together in my name, there I am with them.’” matt 18:20

2) Mighty:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 [italics added]

“In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on YHWH, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God.” Is 10:20-21

“God is mighty, but does not despise men; he is mighty, and firm in his purpose.” job 36:5

“Who is this King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, YHWH mighty in battle.” Ps 24:8

The Mighty One, God, YHWH, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets.” Ps 50:1

“O YHWH God Almighty, who is like you? You are mighty, O YHWH, and your faithfulness surrounds you.” Ps 89:8

“Mightier than the thunder of the great waters, mightier than the thunder of the great waters, mightier than the breakers of the sea--YHWH on high is mighty.” Ps 93:4

“Therefore, the Lord, YHWH Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares:” Is 1:24

“For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.” (KJV) Luke 1:49

“...Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:” (KJV) Luke 24:19

“Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one, clothe yourself with splendor and majesty. In your majesty ride forth victoriously in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness; let your right hand display awesome deeds. Let your sharp arrows peirce the hearts of the king’s enemies; let the nations fall beneath your feet. Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Ps. 45:3-6 [jesus; see heb 1:8]

3) Everlasting:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 [italics added]

“O YHWH, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.” Hab 1:12

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2

“Do you not know? Have you not heard? YHWH is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.” Is 40:28

“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting, Amen and Amen.” Ps 41:13

“In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you, says YHWH your Redeemer.” Is 54:8

4) Father:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 [italics added]

And do not call anyone ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” matt 23:9

“’If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.’ Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.’ Jesus answered, ‘Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” john 14:7-9

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son; today I have become your Father’?” Heb 1:5

He will be a father to those in Jerusalem and in the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him; its offspring and offshoots--all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.” Is 22:21-24

(“To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: ‘These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” Rev 3:7)

“...just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.” rev 3:21

“He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’” Ps. 89:26

5) Title of Peace:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 [italics added]

“For this is what the Lord says: ‘I will extend peace to her like a river...’” Is 66:12

“And then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. And he will be their peace.” Micah 5:4-5

For he himself is our peace... by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” Eph 2:14

“And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Phil 4:7

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,...” Gal 5:22

“YHWH gives strength to his people; YHWH blesses his people with peace.” Ps 29:11

YHWH, you establish peace for us; all that we have accomplished you have done for us.” Is 26:12

“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” Col 1:29-20

“’And in this place I will grant peace,’ declares the Lord Almighty.” Haggai 2:9

6) The title of “Redeemer” is shared by both:

“you, O YHWH, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.” Is 63:16

“This is what YHWH says--your Redeemer; the Holy One of Israel:” Is 43:14

“Yet their Redeemer is strong; the Lord Almighty is his name.” Jer 50:34

“...while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.” titus 2:13-14

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,... He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.” Gal 3:13, 14

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins....” Eph 1:7

“to redeem those under law, so that we might receive the full rights of sons.” Gal 4:5

“For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.” 1 Pet 1:18

“O Israel, put your hope in YHWH, for with YHWH is unfailing love and with him is full redemption. He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins.” Ps 130:7-8

7) The title “Salvation” or “Savior” is shared by both:

“...but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus,...” 2 Tim 1:10

“Then you will know that I, YHWH, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is 60:16

“Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afriad. The Lord, YHWH, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.” Is 12:2

“It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. ... Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying, ‘...For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people....’” Luke 2:26,30

“But I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.” Hosea 13:4

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.” 1 John 4:14

“And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.” Is 44:21

“But the angel said to them, ‘Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.’” Luke 10-11

[David/Jesus speaking to Jehovah] “He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’” Ps 89:26

And everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved;” Joel 2:32

That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ ... you will be saved.” rom 10:9

“’...then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is “the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.” Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.’” Acts 4:10-12

Our help is in the name of YHWH, the Maker of heaven and earth.” Ps 124:8

“Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet....” Eph 1:20-22

‘Brothers, what shall we do?’ Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.’” Acts 2:37-39

“’Who then can be saved?’ Jesus looked at them and said, ‘With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.’” Mark 10:26-27

“’What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from YHWH.’” Jonah 2:9

“My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him. He alone is my rock and salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.” Ps 62:1-2

“...and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him...” Heb 5:9

8) Name of “Rock” shared by both Jesus and Jehovah:

And who is the Rock except our God?” Ps 18:31

“I will proclaim the name of YHWH. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. ... Is this the way you repay YHWH...? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you? ... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. ... You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.” Deut 32:3,4,6,15,18

“YHWH Almighty is... a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” Is 8:13,14

“What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not obtained it. They stumbled over the ‘stumbling stone.’ As it is written: ‘See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’” Rom 9:30-33

“You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.” Deut 32:18

“There is no one holy like YHWH; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.” 1 Sam 2:2

“’The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exaulted be God, the Rock, my Savior!’” 2 Sam 2:47

“In their hunger you gave them bread from heaven and in their thirst you brought them water from the rock;” Nehemiah 9:15

YHWH is my rock,...” Ps. 18:2

“...and that rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4

9) Title of “Holy One” is shared by both:

For I am God, and not man; the Holy One among you.” Hosea 11:9

“’David said about him [Jesus]:...’ ... ‘...nor will you let your Holy One see decay.’” Acts 2:27

“’You will not let your Holy One see decay.’” Acts 13:35

“I am YHWH, your Holy One, Israel’s Creator, your King.” Is 43:15

“’What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!’” Mark 1:24

“So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

“’For I am YHWH, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom,...” Is. 43:3

“This is what YHWH says--your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:...” Is. 43:14

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you;...” 1 Sam 2:2

“Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy.” Rev 15:3-4

“YHWH said to Moses, ‘Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: “Be holy because I, YHWH your God, am holy.”’” Lev 19:1-2

10) I AM

“God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “Hayah has sent me to you.”’” Ex 3:14

"Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'Hayah YHWH, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians.’” Ex 6:6

“God also said to Moses, ‘Hayah YHWH. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them.’” Ex 6:2-3

Note on the Hebrew words left untranslated here: “Hayah” expresses the timelessness of God. Hayah means “to be, to exist, become, come to pass, be done, happen.” The name “YHWH,” means: “He is” or “He will be” (and is the third-person form of the verb translated “I will be” in exodus 3:12 and “I AM” in Exodus 3:14). When God speaks of himself he says, “I AM,” and when we speak of him we say, “He is.” “I AM” is the translation of the name “YHWH.” The word “Yah” is an abbreviated form of YHWH, so the personal name of God is in both “Yahweh” and “Hayah.”

“Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life.’” john 6:35

“When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world.’” john 8:12

“I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.” John 10:9

“I am the good shepherd.” john 10:11

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’” john 11:25

“On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” john 14:20

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.” John 15:1

“’I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was, ego eimi!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him,...” john 8:58-59

“Then YHWH said to Moses, ‘Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: “If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death.” The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.’” Lev 24:13-16

“’I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” john 10:30-33

Note on the Greek “ego eimi” left untranslated above: The Septuagint, which is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek language before the appearance of Christ, translate the “I AM,” in “I AM has sent me to you” in Exodus 3:14, as “ego eimi has sent me to you.” “Ego eimi” means “I have always been.” The NT uses these exact words also, not for Jehovah but for Jesus in John 8:58; “ego eimi.” Specifically, the one who uses them, is the apostle John who had seen the glory of the I AM (Yah) in revelation 4.

“Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, ‘Who is it you want?’
  ’Jesus of Nazareth,’ they replied.
  ’I am he,’ Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, ‘I am he,’ they drew back and fell to the ground.
Again he asked them, ‘Who is it you want?’
  And they said, ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’
‘I told you that I am he,’ Jesus answered.” John 18:4-8

"See now that I myself am He!
       There is no god besides me.” Deut 32:39

“Even to your old age and gray hairs
       I am he, I am he who will sustain you.” Is 46:4

“Listen to me, O Jacob,
       Israel, whom I have called:
       I am he;
       I am the first and I am the last
.” Is 48:12

“Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
       No one can deliver out of my hand.” Is 43:13

11) Title of “Almighty” is shared by both:

Jesus: “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. ... He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ... He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” Rev 19:1,13,15,16

Jesus: “’These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.’” Rev 3:14

Jehovah:I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood splattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.” [YHWH is speaking here] Is 63:3, 6

(“They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’” Rev 6:16-17)

Jesus: “’You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.’ And I heard the altar respond: ‘Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.’” Rev 16:5-7

Jehovah:I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, YHWH, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty one of Jacob.” Is 49:26

? Jesus/Jehovah:Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” rev 1:7-8

(“’I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.’... ‘I, Jesus...’”. Rev 22:13, 16)

(“He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.’” Rev 21:6)

(“Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.’ ... ‘but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.’” John 4:10, 14)

“When Abram was ninety-nine years old, YHWH appeared to him and said, ‘I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless.’” Gen 17:1

“Therefore the Lord, YHWH Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares:” Is 1:24

12) Shepherd:

YHWH is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. ps 23:1

“’I am the good shepherd.’ ... ‘They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” john 10:11, 16

13) “The Stone that...”:

YHWH Almighty will be
       a stone that causes men to stumble
       and a rock that makes them fall
.” Is 8:13-14

“For in Scripture it says:
   ’See, I lay a stone in Zion,
      a chosen and precious cornerstone,
   and the one who trusts in him
      will never be put to shame.’ Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
   ’The stone the builders rejected
      has become the capstone,’ and,
   ’A stone that causes men to stumble
      and a rock that makes them fall
.’” 1 pet 2:6-8

“For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.” ... “the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
   ’See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
      and a rock that makes them fall
   and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’" Rom 9:3-4, 30-33

14) Giver of rest:

YHWH replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest." ex 33:14

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.“ Matt 11:28

15) Our Very Life:

“For YHWH is your life, and he....” deut 30:20

“When Christ, who is your life, appears,...” col 3:3

16) He who discloses the purposes of the heart:

“...for YHWH searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts.” 1 chronicles 28:9

“But, O YHWH Almighty, you who judge righteously
       and test the heart and mind, Jeremiah 11:20

I YHWH search the heart
       and examine the mind,
       to reward a man according to his conduct,
       according to what his deeds deserve." jerem 17:10

“It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.” 1 cor 4:4-5

“’These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.’” ... “’Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.’” rev 2:18-19, 23

17) Words that last for eternity

YHWH Ps 119:89, Is 40:8
Jesus Mark 13:31, Matt 24:35

18) The fountain of living waters:

"’My people have committed two sins:
       They have forsaken me,
       the spring of living water,...’” Jerem 2:13

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.’" John 7:37-38

19) Whom to put trust in?

“This is what the LORD says:
       ‘Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
       who depends on flesh for his strength
       and whose heart turns away from the YHWH.’” ...
"’But blessed is the man who trusts in YHWH,
       whose confidence is in him
.’” Jerem 17:5,7

“...of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.” 2 tim 1:10-12

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.” john 14:1

20) Whose voice is like rushing waters, hair like wool, clothing white?

“...and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.” Ezek 43:2

"As I looked,
       ‘thrones were set in place,
       and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
       His clothing was as white as snow;
       the hair of his head was white like wool
.’” Daniel 7:9

I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.” Rev 1:12-15

21) Sanctifyer

"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am YHWH, who makes you holy.’” exodus 31:13

“They will say of me, 'In YHWH alone
       are righteousness and strength
       All who have raged against him
       will come to him and be put to shame.
  But in YHWH all the descendants of Israel
       will be found righteous and will exult.” Is 45:24-25

“It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.” 1 cor 1:30

“’Then the nations will know that I YHWH make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' " Ezek 37:28

“Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
    'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied.” ... “’ open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'” Acts 26:15, 18

“But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 cor 6:11

“And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Heb 10:10

“To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours....” 2 peter 1:1

Traditionally assumed Jesus or Jehovah titles/deeds, shown to be mutual as opposed to exclusive:

1) “King of Kings” and “Lord of Lords” is both the name/ job of Jesus and Jehovah:

“For YHWH your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.” Deut 10:17

“...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.” 1 Tim 6:16

“...whose rider is called Faithful and True. ....and his name is the Word of God. ...On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” Rev 19:11,13,16

“They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings...” Rev 17:14

“The king said to Daniel, ‘Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.’” Dan 2:47

“Give thanks to YHWH, for he is good; His love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods; His love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords; His love endures forever.” Ps 136:1-3

“...and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” Rev 1:5

“For God is the King of all the earth; sing to him a psalm of praise. God reigns over the nations; God is seated on his holy throne.” Ps 47:7-8

“How awesome is YHWH Most High, the great King over all the earth!” Ps 47:2

2) Specifically Book of Revelation titles given to Jehovah traditionally, also belonging to Jesus:

a) “First and Last”:

“I, YHWH -with the first of them
       and with the last—I am he." Is 41:4

This is what YHWH says
       Israel's King and Redeemer, YHWH Almighty:
       I am the first and I am the last;
       apart from me there is no God
.” Is 44:6

"Listen to me, O Jacob,
       Israel, whom I have called:
       I am he;
       I am the first and I am the last.” Is 48:12

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
      These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.” Rev 2:8

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” rev 22:13

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’” rev 1:17 (rev 1:17 is Jesus talking; see 1:13 & 16 [&19:15]; 19:5)

b) “Beginning and End”and “Alpha and Omega”:

“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” rev 22:13

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.’” Rev 21:6

“Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.’ ... ‘but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.’” John 4:10, 14

c) “Holy holy holy is the Lord God Almighty” was addressed to Jesus (both times?? I’m thinking) by prophecy, in books Revelation and Isaiah:

“I saw Adonay seated on a throne...” “...and they were calling to one another: ‘Holy, holy holy is YHWH Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.’” Is 6:1,3

“Day and night they never stop saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.’" rev 4:8

My comment: Because the NT gospels decared the Isaiah 6 passage as specifically describing Jesus Christ:

John 12:37-41:

“Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
   "Lord, who has believed our message
      and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
  ‘He has blinded their eyes
      and deadened their hearts,
   so they can neither see with their eyes,
      nor understand with their hearts,
      nor turn—and I would heal them.’
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him

and to reference, Isaiah 6:1-10:

“In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw Adonay seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
       ‘Holy, holy, holy is YHWH Almighty;
       the whole earth is full of his glory.’
At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
  ‘Woe to me!’ I cried. ‘I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, YHWH Almighty.’
  Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, ‘See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.’
  Then I heard the voice of Adonay saying, ‘Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’
      And I said, ‘Here am I. Send me!’
  He said, ‘Go and tell this people:
       'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
       be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
  Make the heart of this people calloused;
       make their ears dull
       and close their eyes.
       Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
       hear with their ears,
       understand with their hearts,
       and turn and be healed

My comment: Again, maybe there are more indications besides just these, that this is the same vision being prophecied by Isaiah and the apostle John (who wrote the words: “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him,” and also the vision in the book of Revelation we are examining) regarding identity? (The same man who wrote Revelation 4:8 about the Lord God Almighty, also wrote, in his gospel, the name of the one he witnessed as being called the Almighty.) The creatures described are the same:

In Isaiah 6:1-3: “Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
       ‘Holy, holy, holy is YHWH Almighty;
       the whole earth is full of his glory.’”

In Rev 4:6-8: “In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.’”

3) The attribute “who was and who is” belongs to both:

to Jesus: “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;...” rev 16:5

to Jehovah: “...fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign.” rev 11:17

4) The book of Revelation shows Jesus to be equal to Jehovah in regards to worship received:

a) Jesus is worshiped in collusion with Jehovah at the place of the throne of God, surrounded by the four creatures, the elders and the angels:

“Then one of the elders said to me, ‘Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.’
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.” ... “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:
   ’You are worthy to take the scroll
      and to open its seals,
   because you were slain,
      and with your blood you purchased men for God
      from every tribe and language and people and nation.
  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
      and they will reign on the earth.’
  Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:
   ’Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
   to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
   and honor and glory and praise!’
  Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
   ’To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
   be praise and honor and glory and power,
   for ever and ever!’ The four living creatures said, ‘Amen,’ and the elders fell down and worshiped
.” rev 7:5-6, 8-14

b) Who is at the center of the throne?

“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne...” Rev 5:6

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God....” ... “For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd....” Rev 7:10-11, 17

c) The same praise is addressed to Jesus and Jehovah:

To (traditionally thought to be) Jehovah: “Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.” rev 7:12

To Jesus: “Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.” rev 5:12

To both: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” rev 5:13

5) Worship, reverence and obiesance given only to Jesus and Jehovah, but no one else (not just to Jehovah though?):

a) Examples where worship, reverence or obiesance are rejected and accepted:

Reverence: (perhaps meaning “A feeling of profound awe and respect for one regarded as having a sacred or exalted character.”,

Rebuked for a saint: “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. ‘Stand up,’ he said, ‘I am only a man myself.’” Acts 10:25-26

Allowed for Jesus: “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!”

Allowed for Jehovah: “the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.” rev 4:10

Allowed for Jesus: “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.” rev 5:8

Worship: (perhaps meaning “The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. Ardent devotion; adoration. Worship is honor and adoration.”,,

Rebuked for an angel: “I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" rev 22:8-9

Allowed for Jesus: “Then the man said, ‘Lord, I believe,’ and he worshiped him.” john 9:38

Allowed for Jesus: “And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
   ’Let all God's angels worship him.’” Heb 1:6

(One of the Dead Sea scrolls adds a clause to Deut 32:43, explaining from where the author of Hebrews pulled that quote of prophecy regarding Jesus: “Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels worship him, for he will avenge the blood....”)

Obiesance: (perhaps meaning “The act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person, that expresses deference or homage.”,

Rebuked for the saints: “When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" ... “But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them.” acts 14:11, 14-15

Rebuked for all gods: “Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” ex 34:13-14

Allowed for Jesus: “Thomas said, ‘The Lord of me and the God of me!’”

Rebuked for all Gods or gods except YHWH...: “But those who trust in idols, who say to images, 'You are our gods,' will be turned back in utter shame.” Is 42:17

Summary: Jesus never sinned. He knew the Jewish law to worship God alone and he obeyed it and examplified it for his disciples, because he was perfect. How could he have modeled fidelity for God when receiving obiesance, as the angel pointed out in 19:10 and 22:9? In these two times, John fell down before the angel and was rebuked to “Proskyneo God!” And yet in that same book by the same man who wrote all these accounts, John fell down before Jesus in Rev 1:17 and was not corrected for it, but rather received the touch of His right hand and was consoled? And in the gospel of John, 9:38, the blind man, again according to the apostle, “proskyneo”-d Jesus. Could John have sinned by forgetting that he should witness proskyneo to God alone?

b) Why is it okay to give worship or obiesance to Jesus, as John and Thomas and other disciples, and angels did?

“They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and [worshiped/Sebazomai] and [served/Latreuo] created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.” rom 1:25

Sebazomai” means ‘To reverence, venerate, worship.’
Latreuo” means ‘to serve religiously, to worship.’

What place does “obiesance” have outside of these two definitions? So even the standard lowered down from worship, to reverence and service for anything created, is practicing sin. Worship and obedience can only go to the Creator(s). However this passage explains that if Jesus is a Creator than he is not part of creation, in other words, not a created being. No Jew or angel can devote service, obiesance or worship to a created thing without being an idolater. And since they are permitted to give it to Jesus, Jesus therefore shows to be not a creature but only creator, as we already knew he was. Little “g” gods of every kind, including Satan, were creatures. And none of them are permitted obiesance. Also, since the Holy Spirit is submitted to the command of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit; God’s will, or force, it cannot obey any thing of creation; it can only obey the Creator, for God is Spirit and He cannot sin by submitting itself in idolatry either.

6) Whose years have no end? Who never changes?

“Psalm 102 A prayer of an afflicted man. When he is faint and pours out his lament before YHWH:”

“’Hear my prayer, O YHWH;
       let my cry for help come to you.’” ...
“‘In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
       and the heavens are the work of your hands.
  They will perish, but you remain;
       they will all wear out like a garment.
       Like clothing you will change them
       and they will be discarded.
  But you remain the same,
       and your years will never end.’” Ps 102; subheading, vs 1, vs 25-27

“But about the Son he says,” ...
“’In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
      and the heavens are the work of your hands.
  They will perish, but you remain;
      they will all wear out like a garment.
  You will roll them up like a robe;
      like a garment they will be changed.
   But you remain the same,
      and your years will never end.’" Heb 1:8, 10-12

7) Was YHWH ever pierced?

“They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” Zecharaiah 12:10 see also 12:1, 13:2

8) Out of the mouths of babes and infants is praise for whom?

YHWH Ps 8:1-2
Jesus Matt 21:5-6

9) Witnesses for whom?

YHWH: “You are my witnesses....” Is 43:10
Jesus: “You are my witnesses....” Acts 1:8

10) Does YHWH yeild his glory to others, or not?

“I am YHWH; that is my name!
       I will not give my glory to another
       or my praise to idols
.” Is 42:8

“For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
       How can I let myself be defamed?
       I will not yield my glory to another.” Is 48:11

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” John 17:5

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. John 17:24

11) What about how the saints share attributes with Jesus even though we are not Jehovah God?

Peter is a type of Jesus, called the rock of the church, imitating Christ and therefore also YHWH. The Saints, also share attributes of Jesus and YHWH, in that they are called holy, can speak the words of God, can be witnesses, etc. They also enjoy the powers and privileges of God and Jesus in healing, resurrection, eternal life, glorified bodies, rebuking of demons, and victory over sin. These are all attributes of function.

I say to you when we meet “Difference in function does not mean difference in nature.” But then it must also be true the reverse, that similarity in function does not always mean similarity in nature. This means that just because the saints share functions with Jesus does not mean that they share the same nature as Jesus, and just because Jesus shares functions like Jehovah, does not mean that he shares the same nature as Jehovah.

So it is important to ask whether scripture in its plenty shows differences in function between us and Jesus, between us and Jehovah, and between Jesus and Jehovah.


--us vs. --Jesus & Jehovah

-- sin vs. --holiness
--not participatory vs. --creating
--not participatory vs. --sustaining
--not participatory vs. --saving
--not participatory vs. --removing sins
--not participatory vs. --being called God
--not participatory vs. --being called Lord
--not participatory vs. --revelation
--not participatory vs. --sanctifying
--not participatory vs. --to be worshiped
--only 24 outlying thrones vs. --on central throne
--no obeisance allowed vs. --gets obiesance
--short lives vs. --eternal
--not participatory --object of trust
--not participatory --object of faith
--not participatory --name for confession
--children vs. --father
--do not judge vs. --judge
--cannot know the heart vs. --sees the inside of hearts
--words often false vs. --words always true
--refrain from vengence vs. --permitted to take revenge
--do not recognize the way of peace vs. --being the way of peace

12) Is Jesus exactly the being YHWH God?

Consider this table of identical names they separately are called and identical roles they separately play in God’s Word as a summary of what we’ve seen already in this document:

--Jesus vs. --Jehovah

--the one who is and who was vs. --the one who is and who was
--the first and the last vs. --the first and the last
--the one shepherd vs. --the one shepherd
--the one father vs. --the one father
--the one God vs. --the one God
--YHWH vs. --YHWH
--the Lord God Almighty vs. --the Lord God Almighty
--sanctifier vs. --sanctifier
--myself the redeemer vs. --myself the redeemer
--the only savior vs. --the only savior
--lord vs. --lord
--I am vs. --I am
--worker of salvation vs. --lone worker of salvation
--beginning and the end vs. --beginning and the end
--alpha and omega vs. --alpha and omega
--only holy one vs. --only holy one
--the only ruler vs. --the only ruler
--king of kings and lord of lords vs. --king of kings and lord of lords
--lone creator vs. --lone creator
--mighty one vs. --mighty one
--mighty God vs. --mighty God
--I am he vs. --I am he
--am peace vs. --am peace
--the only rock vs. --the only rock
--stone of stumbling vs. --stone of stumbling
--the only name vs. --the only name
--the lord of glory vs. --the lord of glory
--giver of rest vs. --giver of rest
--our very life vs. --our very life
--he who searches the heart vs. --he who searches the heart
--words of eternity vs. --words of eternity
--fountain of living waters vs. --fountain of living waters
--object of all trust vs. --object of all trust
--voice, hair & clothing described vs. --voice, hair & clothing described
--one source of righteousness vs. --one source of righteousness
--one source of strength vs. --one source of strength
--theos in nature vs. --theos in nature
--receives proskyneo without sinning vs. --receiving proskyneo

My final comment: Indeed, with as many times YHWH is called Jesus Christ in the scriptures, it begins to make sense why Jesus was so firm and determined to give honor, credit and explanation to the true identity of the Father YHWH. Who is the Father, anyway? The Father is unseen, unspoken for! Jesus is the visible, heard God, so He’s getting all the worship and making all the declarations. So Jesus gives praise and submission to the Father while on earth so that we know that the Father is just as importantly God and worthy of worship as He. Without such efforts on Jesus’ behalf, it would be hard to grasp evidence that there was anyone else in the headship of YHWH God beyond Jesus. Just as Jesus Christ, our giver of grace, is invisible to us now and we have to take pains to give Him the credit for why we are Christians, Jesus had to do the same for Father YHWH while he was here too. “I only do what I have seen my Father do,” he said, and so we too say, “We only follow Jesus’ example.” We have a very intimate feeling for the Father YHWH in noticing how the Son is the representation of the Father and we are the representation of the Son. The Father is so one for Jesus, and Jesus is a Father for us.

blog archive

Phrase Search / Concordance
Words/Phrase To Search For
(e.g. Jesus faith love, or God of my salvation, or believ* ever*)