Wednesday, May 21, 2008

My Testimony

I'm not sure if I have ever shared my testimony of becoming a Christian, on my blog. Probably I have.... I know I've shared it at different forums before.

I'd like to point out a few important things in the story. I'll point those out in a future post. Foremost I want to show here that God accomplished my salvation with very little acknowledgement of the truth on my part, and in complete isolation from other Christians and poor exposure to the Word. These qualities are important to me, because they are evidence that grace is indeed by faith apart from law, so, I beg you to bear with me as I share some critical details.

I never heard the gospel growing up. My father was atheist, or perhaps a scientific agnostic. My mother had become Mormon while our family lived in Utah, and when I was young I attended church there maybe ten times. Once we moved away, my mom became inactive and had great doubts about her worthiness. I, like my father, looked to science to answer the questions of life: where did we come from? What is our purpose? Where are we going? You see... I was sad and deeply oppressed at home, and I became hungry to know for myself anything that would bring me hope and a sense of self-respect. I turned to physical anthropology (the study of human origins (human evolution from a common ape ancestor)), animal psychology, and physics. But the theories had "holes," meaning they were incapable of giving a consistent and complete answer, and I desired a truth without any holes. I decided that I ought to investigate religion if I were going to be fair and open-minded.

I watched the movie "Jesus of Nazareth," four hours long, on public television. It was amazing. I was absolutely curious why, if He could save others, then why would He would also not save himself? Mysterious. I didn't know much else but I could see that the people who followed him in the movie were reacting to the things He taught and did, in the same way I was: He taught with authority and all the people were amazed. I was too. He performed miracles on earth such as forgiving sin that only God was supposed to do. He never seemed to make any mistakes, He always was cool under pressure. Today I might explain the personality of Jesus with doctrines from the Bible... but back then, I knew not how to describe this outstanding person.

But I heard him preaching often about three things: love, peace and joy. And, he constantly was seeking to engage people to come near, to ask, knock, and so on. So when I had watched the movie a second time at the age of seventeen, I prayed after much inward struggle: "God -- if you're real -- if you really do exist -- I'm asking you: I keep hearing about this peace, and this joy and this love, that you say you have. I don't know if I can believe in them, but, I want to know: is it for real? I wanna know and experience this "love." If you let me experience it... well, let this be the test for whether or not you are really real. If I feel it, then I will know you are real, and if nothing happens I will assume you're not." Then I paused shortly because I was called to think that I had heard somehow along the way that business with God was intended to go through His Son. So I said, almost begrudgingly, "And... I guess I could say I believe... that Jesus is who he claims to be."

The next day I woke up with joy. My personality contained joy. It was in there. It actually made my reaction to crises, different. I was not so worried, or burdened. Keep in mind that I continued living at home for another three years, and in those three years the oppression and desperation and isolation remained constant or got worse. But the joy was unquenchable. I could not lose it despite circumstance. It was that joy that caused me to think beyond my current life and make plans to grow out from under that position.

I never knew a Christian. I consider this odd. No neighbors, no people at high school. One of the attributes of the isolation I suffered was not being allowed to be around anyone except family, so, I had rare socialization with the outside world beyond school. I remember seeing signs at Christmas saying "believe in Jesus and you will be saved," but I didn't know how to process what that was about. In those three years I never knew a Christian person or attended any denomination, and today I believe I was saved all the while.

A handful of times in those three years I actually found a bible and opened it up because I wanted to know God: I only flipped through these books: Psalms, Proverbs, & Matthew. I skimmed the book of Matthew and got frustrated, because it was almost entirely about Jesus. He's only one person, I thought. Why does it need to talk so much about one man? That's rather arrogant. Why doesn't the bible have something more to say about somebody else, say... me? Why isn't there something written in there about who I am, what I can do?

After those three years, I escaped from home, and moved onto a college campus into a girls' co-op. I roomed with the strongest Christian young lady living in that house of fifty girls, all "by chance," but God had great things planned for me. Her name is Julie. On our second night of being roommates she asked me:

"Are you a Christian?"

"Umm, I don't know. [pause] I'm not sure what a Christian is," I admitted.

She said, "Well, a Christian is somebody who believes in Jesus. Do you... believe in Jesus?"

"I... don't know if I believe in Him, though I guess I could say that I know He's real." I thought for a bit. I knew He was real because I remembered how I had made that prayer, citing Him, and had received joy, and, the joy was real, to me. It had changed me. I couldn't deny it. I had even prayed for physical protection through Jesus occasionally, and God answered. "I guess I do believe in Jesus, since He was real to me when I prayed."

"If you believe in Jesus, then you ought to follow Him," she soon said a few days later when she discovered that I knew nothing about the Bible and was greatly enticed to experience everything set before me in my newfound freedom. She told me about sin. I didn't know what sin was, or perhaps I could not believe in the idea of it. For a few weeks I rebelled against her efforts. But she kept on reading scripture with me. I'll tell you what I wanted to do: I wanted to go to frat parties since I was kept isolated from people my age for most my life. With Julie's admonitions to think about living a better lifestyle, at first I delayed but soon realized that way down deep inside I already had made a decision. Jesus was real. He had been there to show me love when I couldn't believe there was such a thing. I couldn't stuff that whole experience away and pretend like it never happened, and tried to figure a way out, but to no use. So I gave in, and decided to learn the truth. After a time I agreed that sin was a real thing, and inwardly contemplated the idea that I had committed some. This happened at the age of twenty.

At the age of twenty-one I had learned enough of God's purpose for me that I knew His truth was the one "scientific theory" of my life that was flawless, with no gap in the fabric. And I loved Him for it. I became sold out for Jesus from this time on.

When I was twenty-four I unknowingly entered into a cult which told me, after leading me along in scripted bible studies for several months, that because I had not been baptized after already having become their definition of a disciple of Christ, I was not saved. They told me I had never received the Holy Spirit like I thought. God's wrath was still upon me. I went home crying. Thank God for my husband Ben: he said "That's not true. Read Ephesians 1:13." I did. But it wasn't enough. I needed to know more, a whole lot more, in order to combat the confusion in me and the various messages out there in the world. I saw, in two years of obsessive study, that baptism, repentance, confession, asking Jesus to be LORD, good works, etc. sometimes accompany the salvific statements, but there were plenty of them that had none of these -- just faith. I took the scriptures to my cultist mentor. She rejected them but years later, God answered my prayers and I received a surprise letter saying that she had finally learned and took peace knowing she was saved by faith apart from law. Praise God!

God gave me for a time a ministry with the Oneness Pentecostal church down the street from us. Many members were interwoven into my life, including the pastor and his family, and he allowed me to use the scriptures to show him that he was saved by faith alone. After several months I noticed in one of his Wednesday night sermons that he had taken my notes and rebutted each point with his opinion and occasionally a scripture. I was sad, told them I felt God was asking me to move on, they disfellowshipped me and to this day when I cross paths (and I do nearly every day) with any of those neighbors, most of them frown at me and raise an eyebrow of wariness.

My other Christian roommate from college, Jenn, humbled herself and permitted her apprentice, me, to teach her several years after we roomed together, that faith was not just the means by which we are justified, but also that faith distinct from legalism is how we are to be sanctified. She thanked me when it was all over, saying she had not realized that she herself had slipped from recognizing this all important truth, and set herself for speaking with her Pastor in Halsey, Oregon.

Online, I have been evangelizing the LDS at a religious forum. I've been there loving on them for five and a half years. In year three, an Evangelical-Lutheran came in to evangelize them too. She loved the Word of God but made mistakes in how she treated them, and how she presented the truth. She called herself someone who believed that grace is free -- but she didn't act or preach in a manner obedient to that belief. For instance, she believed in baptism for salvation. I had to make a choice: was she right that the gospel was more than just faith, or was salvation that simple? I felt peer pressure, thankful to have another evangelical to witness to this great bunch at the LDS forum. Through a year of wrestling with my thoughts over watching her methodology and message, and what I knew I already believed should be the message and methodology from scripture, I took a stand in front of the LDS, against her message, defending the simple truth: faith in Jesus is what saves. She accused me of being softened by the LDS toward heresy. That's okay. We're still in contact. I emailed her a fifteen page document of scripture I wrote showing her how simple faith really is. For a time it excited her, then she decided it was not true once more.

There are other less significant projects I have involved myself in through time in terms of using scripture in social context, to try and illuminate the simplicity of "faith apart from law."

If readers would please allow me the privilege, I would ask some questions for anyone who is marveled that salvation could be so simple to come with neither agreeing sin was real (till three years after salvation), or without confessing hardly anything about Jesus: not that He was Messiah or God's Son (I learned at the age of twenty-four that Jesus was claiming to be God in the same manner as the Father was God--an additional three years later).

There are implications to anyone's rejection of my story. I can imagine what they are.... Am I supposed to believe those six years I spent after receiving the joy and peace and love, the same kind I know now, were not God's gift of the Holy Spirit, who is living in me? In order for their assertion to be correct one would need to discredit my experience. But let me ask: What false experience of joy would lead me to confess, when asked by a stranger named Julie, that I believed in Jesus? What's more, what false experience of joy could have wrestled so powerfully in my life to win me toward trusting Him, more? Think with me about what I surrendered: I knew no doctrine about Jesus and I wanted to be in control of me and party. But I couldn't just do as I pleased. Because He was too real. And I couldn't escape that. I started to care to learn the commandments of the One who had been there for me. I willingly and even eagerly became His disciple in the truths of His Word.

What more could you ask out of a salvation experience, than this?

Aren't these the very things that we hope happen to those who have been saved? It is these behaviors, these decisions that come for those who receive the grace of God.

My assurance (of salvation by that prayer of faith) was tested, though not first by the mainstream of Free Grace....

I know that it isn't a written code that saves. It isn't doctrine, that saves. It is not knowledge that saves. It is Jesus who saves, if we believe in Him, even in His name, even to look to him for help. As Pastor Laeger taught us about Judas's repentance, all kinds of repentance brings benefit, but -- only one repentance is the kind that brings salvation. In the same way, I could have found the good in many people who share personality characteristics with Jesus Christ, and I could have put trust in them. But -- when I trusted in Jesus I got something no one else can give: eternal life.

Dr. Wilson taught in the "Intro to Free Grace Theology" course that you have to, have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God to be saved. In the "Evangelism" class it was said the content for saving faith is what Paul affirmed in 1 Cor 15. What will someone else add, what would another well-intentioned Free Gracer select to teach about Jesus? All of these selections are so critical for understanding the LORD in truth. I confess that's true. All of them are truthful statements about what Jesus did on our behalf. But: how many of them are necessary to receive eternal life? One, two, many? All? The whole gospel of John, every chapter, every verse??

The written code kills, but the Spirit gives life. We are not saved by any arrangement of rules, scriptural or otherwise. If we start regulating by a list, are we any different than most any religion out in the world around us? I don't desire people to believe in a "false Jesus." But I'm not afraid of it to the point it cripples me into another brand of legalism. Can a person be deceived or uneducated about who Jesus is in any manner, and yet be saved? Yes, it can be propitiated by Jesus' blood, shed for our sins.

It was once taught during class at seminary that the disciples were saved while Jesus was with them on earth (something I have not personally studied out up to this time). And they did not believe in resurrection? So then, they did not get one of "the essentials" right. But I see more. How come the disciples were amazed and wondered aloud that the wind and the waves obeyed Him, and were rebuked for not knowing who He was all that time? Didn't they fail to identify his deity? How come they were amazed that He could what sounded like blaspheme God when He called himself "one" with the Father or was able to forgive sin? Did they really know Him as Messiah, and yet were saved? I was also taught that we should have a faith like a child. That as we grow older we become more pharisitical, more legalistic. If you and I could have been there and witnessed a child want to follow Jesus, want to trust Him, not knowing all the things about him that an adult can, should we have stood in the child's way, for a list? Would God not grant eternal life for a child's trust in Jesus? Anyone who trusts in Him will not be disappointed.

Those living in the era after the New Testament was canonized have the privilege of understanding progressive revelation. I want to ask whether because it has been revealed must it all be agreed upon in order to be saved? Without faith it is impossible to please God. The righteous will live by faith. Though knowledge is not opposed to justification or sanctification, it is often opposed to humility. God comes near to the humble but opposes the proud.

I understand that Dr. Wilson found two attributes of Jesus that are thematically tied to salvation. But for us to pull them out and require them is a bold move. Should such stance be made? Does God honor such a stance? My testimony and my understanding of salvation tell me no. I have been convinced since the time of my studies that even before I was aware, God did something unusual in my story to prove the power of God: to show that no man, no doctrine, no denominational distinctives need mediate between God and a man seeking His reality. Jesus is my all-sufficient Mediator.

We are so afraid because of the Calvinist's influence that the heart is desperately wicked and cannot be trusted, and in the same way we are convinced that because Satan masquerades as an angel of light so we must also not trust our experiences. But my experience led to Christ, not to deception: "wisdom is justified by her children." matt 11:19

"And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." rom 2:27-29

There has been no one to lead or encourage me as I agonized to be sure and also vocal on what the scriptures teach. Foremost the Word and secondarily my testimony proves, that the grace of God is free by faith alone in Chirst alone. I never have met any other Christian who can keep their confidence in the face of popular corruptive Christian teachings. Till now, till attending Grace Seminary of the Northwest.

87 comments:

Teresa said...

What a wonderful and eloquently written testimony! I love being reminded that God is bigger then any obstacle we may view as "big" here on earth. The fact that you did not know any christians and yet entered into a relationship with Jesus is so awesome! Keep up the good work sharing the gospel!!!

Sanctification said...

Thank you so much for leaving your positive comment. I usually am afraid to tell the story because a lot of people think my idea of salvation is wacky.... You make me feel a ton more confident!! :)

Diane said...

Hi Michele (I think that's your name),

I learned of your testimony on Antonio's blog and looked you up.

What a wonderful testimony of God's grace. I was captivated by it. Can I ask you a question? This is just an observation. Feel free to correct me if I have the facts wrong.

It's obvious to me that Christ was drawing you to Himself. It sounds like you're saying that you were born again, possessing eternal life BEFORE you even understood that Jesus Christ was the giver of eternal life. In other words, you believed in Him for something. You believed that He loved you. You believed that He existed and was different than anyone else. But it sounds like you didn't yet know what He had given you. You just knew you had joy, and that joy came from Him. It sounds like you NOW know that He alone saved you, but that you were actually eternally saved (born again) before you knew that. Is that what you believe?

May I suggest something. Please feel free to correct my misunderstanding if that's what I'm doing. First of all, nobody can argue against an experience. Your experience is very real. But the Bible says that we must believe in Him for eternal life. Did you believe in Him for eternal life back when you prayed that prayer and woke up with joy? If so, then that was the time you were born again. But if not, that was probably God drawing you to Himself. Like He did with Cornelius. Cornelius was a devout man and one who feared God (Acts 10). One who prayed to God always. God even heard his prayers before he was saved. God sent Peter to Cornelius to tell him words by which he would be saved. This man was experiencing God's love even before he was born again. But because He was seeking the Lord, the Lord took the saving message to Him. He believed and was born again.

From your testimony it sounds like something similar happened to you. You were very concious of God's love and of Jesus Christ being who He said He was. So God worked in your heart this wonderful miracle of bringing you to the place where you believed in Jesus for eternal life. You probably didn't know enough to call it by name, but at the time you were born again you knew that through Jesus alone you were eternally secure. Safe forever because of Him and with Him.

So my observation (because of your testimony) is that God was drawing you to Himself because He loved you. You responded to His drawing. And somewhere along the way you past from death to life. You may think it was when you woke up with joy. But only God knows for sure. It was when you believed in Him for eternal life.

I think God did that in my life. I always went to Sunday School. I loved God in my own way. Yet it wasn't until I was in high school that I understood for the first time the truth of John 3:16. I believed His promise of everlasting life to the one who believed in Jesus Christ alone for it. I'm not sure of the exact day, but I know the aproximate time. God knows. That's all that matters.

So that was just my observation after reading your beautiful testimony. It thrills my heart. God was seeking you. He purchased your salvation with the blood of His Son. He drew you and you responded to the light that He gave you. It may be called pre-evangelism. God knows the time, but He was loving you even before you received life.

That's just my observation. Thank you for sharing your testimony on your blog. I loved reading it.

All because of His great love,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane,

I believe you shared your own testimony lately on Antonio's blog, and I thought the same thing! It caught my imagination and I was able to see where you were and what the truths of His Word meant to you. It was great to read that and think about it.

I, too, wonder as you do. You are the second person to ask the same question. The first time I heard it was from Dr. Wilkin in his assessment of my testimony, about a month ago. He asked, where did I believe that Jesus gives eternal life? I never say when I realized this.

I never thought about it, till then, and now, again. I guess it just wasn't a big deal to me at all, which is why I can't remember when I believed in that specific element.

I think the exultation of this requisite above others is limiting. Salvation's righteousness can be imparted by trusting Jesus for eternal life, but it can happen in other ways, too. In my opinion, we must submit our doctrine of the minimal requirements, to fit within the archdoctrine of law vs. grace.

Only then will we understand the purpose for which the gospel was made.

Thank you for your love! It is indeed received.

Blessings to you too, Michele

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

How nice to hear from you. I appreciated your comments.

You said.....
"Salvation's righteousness can be imparted by trusting Jesus for eternal life, but it can happen in other ways, too."

I guess I don't understand what you mean by that. There's only one way to be eternally saved and that's to believe in Jesus alone as the giver of this eternal salvation. We may not know enough to word it like that when we first get saved, but one thing we must know..... that our eternal well-being is secure with the Lord because of Jesus alone. In other words, we know we're eternally saved... that we will forever be with God because of Jesus Christ. He is the only way.

I don't know the exact moment I was eternally saved. I only know the general time. But I remember very well having the light go on. Jesus paid the penalty for my sin so that I could have everlasting life with Him when I believed in Him for it. My faith was in Jesus for that wonderful gift. I doubt if most people know the exact moment when they past from death to life. But God knows, and that's all that matters.

Dear friend, I hope I don't sound argumentative. You are very sweet and I don't mean to be argumentative at all. I just don't understand what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying you can believe lots of different things about God and still be born again even if you don't yet know your eternity is secure with God because your faith in Jesus alone. He promised to eternally save when we just simply take Him at His Word.

You said.....
"In my opinion, we must submit our doctrine of the minimal requirements, to fit within the archdoctrine of law vs. grace."

Please forgive me, but I don't understand what you mean by that either.

I enjoy reading all of your comments. I'm glad God brought Dr. Radmacher into your path. Yes, he is such a dear man of God. Hopefully you'll have many fruitful discussions with him in the future

I appreciate your gentle spirit.

In Jesus' love,
Diane
:-)

Missy said...

Michele,

Thanks for this testimony. I am amazed at the similarities - even in the "cult" we became involved in. :)

I also think I understand your response regarding eternal salvation or eternal life. On some level, I can clearly see that believing in Jesus to care for me eternally was what salvation meant to me without understanding that meant I would have an eternal life. If that makes any sense?

I admire your ability to question and stand up for the truth you see. It is most often fellow believers that will make us question our salvation through Christ. I am hopeful, but I don't imagine that will change.

God Bless you!

Missy

Sanctification said...

Missy,

Thanks for being gracious with me. I always need to consider that I might have bad feelings left over for one personally upsetting thing or another, but, bad things that happen aren't entirely bad, or at least oftentimes they are not intended to be bad. The ICOC is one of those kinds of cases. So, again, I am amazed and thankful that you bear patiently with the remnant of my bad attitude.

You said:

"On some level, I can clearly see that believing in Jesus to care for me eternally was what salvation meant to me without understanding that meant I would have an eternal life. If that makes any sense?"

Oh, absolutely! Paul had to use the inspiration of the Spirit to defensively teach us that "If he gave us all this, won't he also give us all things? I am convinced there is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ." (I paraphrase from Romans 8.)

Jesus also says that "if you who are evil know how to give what is good to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask!"

God is excited, to bless us when we turn to Him!

Salvation is supposed to be easy. Some people, including myself at a time in my life, wanted to think about righteousness as coming through formula. We are out of touch with something very fundamental, when we treat the Word of God as a formula, for anything.

I, personally, never even cared about my eternal experience (after death). I cared about here, and now.

People want to make some arrangement of biblical concepts in order to set people in orthodoxy. That is admirable. But none of these principles reign supreme over other biblical principles. Principles, like wisdom, grace, forgiveness, freedom from the law, etc. They all go together as equally necessary.

So, tell me more? Is your story of coming into the ICOC somewhere up? I haven't noticed it so far.

How do you think about challenging others' claims of salvation? Is this good or bad?

Michele

Missy said...

Michele,

I think challenging someone’s salvation is usually wrong. I think judging it is always wrong. I think asking them about their salvation is good. I think talking about my own salvation with them and listening to them talk freely about their own is better.

I actually started my "Just Another Voice in Your Head" blog because of my concern for that challenging of other's salvation. The first two sites I read some of your comments on, a few others, and of course my own experience led me to it. My testimony talks about some of my own experience, and my first three posts talk about what I was thinking about the "crossless" debate when I began the blog.

I think I am approaching free grace, but not in the sense that one side is right and the other wrong. My walk has personally made me wonder if we don't all sort of start out needing the "commitment" part that makes us work, but then mature to a different understanding of our freedom. I have seen that most mature, godly and loving Christians end up there. Plus, it seems to work that way with bringing up children and in marriage. :)

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about righteousness not coming through a formula – especially a man-created one. And I steer clear of holding any orthodoxy or theology higher than the biblical principles you name (some of the best!) and those Christ teaches.

BTW - You’ll notice in my stories that I don’t say “The ICOC” this and that. I don’t hold my denomination (which many in the ICOC would cringe that I say that!) any higher than any other. I don’t agree that they got it all right. I don’t think anyone does or will until we are all perfected with Christ. I stay because I found a group of individual people, and here in New Hampshire even leadership, who draw me closer to God with love and set the example of what a mature people of God look like. And they are patient to let me grow as God sees fit. That’s not always easy to find, but I suspect and hope there are groups like this all over in many different denominations.

Sorry for all the words! I've worked in my home office all day talking to a database. I needed conversation!

Missy

Sanctification said...

Missy,

It is such a great conversation. And I need it too. We have a lot in common. I spend a lot of time thinking about what it is about our faith that trains us to become more godly.

You said:

"My walk has personally made me wonder if we don't all sort of start out needing the 'commitment' part that makes us work, but then mature to a different understanding of our freedom."

You're on to something that I see, too. I think there are times in which, if I didn't rely (actually way too heavily) on Christians who were forming me, I would not have ended up with a love for the Word, and a reliance on it. And other important things. I suppose everyone has a stage where they lean on others for their growth.

God is love, and where love is, so is a silent sermon in the wisdom of our Savior!

You know as I do that there needs to come a time to branch out ourselves in reliance on God, which means taking other people out of our routine. That is a beautiful time in our walk with God. Even though I bet it often comes in the disguise of suffering or evil.

I wonder for some who have ridden the historical wave of reaction against Lordship theology. There was backlash because those teachings became out of touch with the gospel. How far, as it stands right now, have they ridden that wave out? Do they know why they must defend the gospel of faith alone in Christ alone? At this point they know the alternative is a departure, so that is good. They have knowledge because they have arrived at the right answer. But I don't know if they have investigated the implications of a law-less righteousness.

At least, I am curious to test them.

I'm going to check out your links, and read into this topic. I want to hear more of your ideas!

You make me think about starting a series on law vs. grace. It'll be thick and long and maybe boring. But I always think it's exciting. It's definitely controversial. I haven't figured it all out yet, and I need help. If you read it and you see problems, please share them.

I am glad that you have found Godly, graceful examples in the ICOC. I knew they were in there, too. :)

It is very neat to catch up with someone from the ICOC. Can't wait to read your blog!

Thanks Missy!

Missy said...

Michele,

I see you've already started that series! I'll dig in very soon.

You said,
"You know as I do that there needs to come a time to branch out ourselves in reliance on God, which means taking other people out of our routine. That is a beautiful time in our walk with God. Even though I bet it often comes in the disguise of suffering or evil."

I totally agree. We relocated to New Hampshire, almost two years ago, from Fort Worth, Texas for my husband's job. All our family was in Texas and we knew no one - and even though we found an ICOC body to join, they have a very different mindset than back home. It was hard, but it has made me rely on God 100%. My faith has grown in bounds and the difference in the congregations has been a beautiful blessing.

I'll join the usual programming next time and cathch up with your most recent posts! It's good to get to know you.

Missy

Anonymous said...

I enjoyed reading your testimony. I would like to encourage you to go to "bloodtippedears.blogspot.com" and type in Paul Washer on the search. Listen to his message regeneration/self denial.

blessings

alvin said...

Hi Michele

Your testimony reminded me alot about my own. I look back now and see where God was drawing me to Himself. I remember taking everything to the cross and then falling alseep in tears and waking up the next day with a joy and aware of God's presence. During that time I had a two week shut down from work. When I had left work I was dirty talking and telling bad jocks, but when I went back to work they wanted to know what had happened to me. I had a new desire to please God. But I still thought I had to live the life in order to get to heaven. Without really understanding it I had believed something that God doesn't give. I was yet to believe that His gift could only be taken freely as a gift. It wasn't until the light came on did I pass from death to life, and was no longer walking by law but was walking in grace. I knew at the time I had eternal life and that it was a free gift based solely on Jesus promise. I came to that realization reading Zane Hodges book "Absolutely Free" I was for the FIRST time convinced that eternal life was REALLY a free gift anyone could take.
I think we fall in love with that first moment when God first started drawing us to Himself, but I believe that were only standing on grace when we realize that it truly is a gift because that is the only way Jesus gives eternal life, as a gift.

alvin

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin,

I just now noticed your comment, sorry. What a beautiful testimony of God's grace. I'm thankful for what Zane was capable to assure you of. I appreciate your experience so much, I would not want to think critically of the fruit you exhibit before you had assurance of eternal life.

That's just me, though. I think all kinds of Christians have to deal with the confusion and non-education, once saved by faith, to realize the nature of achievement in Christ, which is also by faith alone. Is that what you are saying?

Thanks for sharing that. It actually encouraged me.
-Michele

alvin said...

Hi Michele

You siad:
I just now noticed your comment, sorry. What a beautiful testimony of God's grace. I'm thankful for what Zane was capable to assure you of.

What Zane was able to show me was the answer to the question I was asking God: I know eternal life is a gift but the Bible makes it sound like it cost everything, and unless you show me I'll never know. Zane's book showed where LS had mixed together the gift and discipleship making it like a contract. It was like the old Calvinist saying "your saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone." This is mixing grace with works. It wasn't until Zane explained the difference did I really see the freeness of the gift, that it really was a gift to be taken freely.

Michele, you can't believe something you don't understand, and it's not until you see eternal life as a gift that you have assurance based solely on Jesus promise to give eternal life to the one who believes in Him for it.

I appreciate your experience so much, I would not want to think critically of the fruit you exhibit before you had assurance of eternal life.

The fruit that I exhibited was no different then Cornelius fruit before he was saved. And assuance IS the essence of saving faith. Assurance is part of the offer John 3:16; 5:24

That's just me, though. I think all kinds of Christians have to deal with the confusion and non-education, once saved by faith, to realize the nature of achievement in Christ, which is also by faith alone. Is that what you are saying?

No, what I'm trying to say is that a person isn't a Christian if they have never known they had eternal life simply based upon Jesus promise. You can't believe something you don't understand, and if you've been taught all your life LS mixing faith with works it's just like the Calvinist. They will say they believe "faith alone in Christ alone" but they don't, they believe if you don't have works (perseverance) then you were never saved. If you asked them "is eternal life really a free gift?" They would say YES! But then out of the other side of their mouth they would contradict it by attaching works.
As far as other doctrines confusion and non-education they will not keep you out of heaven, but are simply progressive sanctification coming to know who you are in Christ and then allowing Him to live His life through you.

This last week while listening to Zane Hodges message called “Saved Or In A State of Grace” he explains that biblical language can save no one because it can be twisted, only biblical truth saves. You can believe something that you think is biblical but is not true. He uses the example of a person who believes they are saved but still believe they could still go to hell. Zane explains they are yet to believe biblical truth, so they are believing something but not what Jesus offers. The eternal salvation that Jesus offers saves and saves forever! So until a person understands what Jesus is offering they are not able to become convinced that it is true. And that is what saving faith is, being convinced that what Jesus promises is true (Romans 4:21).


In His Love
alvin

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin,

:D
Thank you for hanging in there for a response, I'm glad you share your knowledge with me.

You said:
what I'm trying to say is that a person isn't a Christian if they have never known they had eternal life simply based upon Jesus promise. You can't believe something you don't understand, and if you've been taught all your life LS mixing faith with works it's just like the Calvinist.

The juxtaposing, I don't know if it is necessary.... The alternatives to the gospel you state above, does not have automatic equality to trusting in self. We are talking a matter of content, true content, that must be believed. We both agree, I think, that false content, like that you actually did have concerning self-righteousnesss, does not save.

With all my passion I want to tell you that I see a different criterion than yours. I don't think eternal life is the object, in combination with Jesus Christ being the object. I see instead the object that must be believed upon, in order to receive eternal life, is simply and only Jesus.

The reasons why I believe this are two; one, the message that saves is also that which sanctifies. A gospel such as yours makes no sense to sanctify, because justification (the granting of eternal life) is instantaneous.

I can't be sanctified by the gospel which says "believe Jesus for eternal life." I've already got eternal life.

But alternatively if the message that saves is simply "be in union with Christ (and His provisions) by faith," I can be both justified and sanctified by this "gospel."

Another reason why I do not believe that the object of our faith must include anything more than Jesus, to be justified with God, is because of the "according to"s by which Jesus grants new life in the gospel narratives.

"Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, 'Son, be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you.'" matt 9:2

"For she said to herself, 'If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.' But Jesus turned around and when He saw her He said, 'Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.'" Matt 9:21-22

"'My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.' But when the crowd was put outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose." matt 9:18, 25

"And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, 'Do you believe that I am able to do this?'
They said to Him, 'Yes Lord.'
Then He touched their eyes, saying, 'According to your faith let it be to you.'" matt 9:28-29

"Then He said to them, 'What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?'" matt 12:11

Why would God reject persuasion (faith) in the provision & righteousness in Jesus Christ? So, can you see this? What do you think of this?

I'm glad you're here,
Michele :D

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I'm still not clear on what you're saying. You said...
I don't think eternal life is the object, in combination with Jesus Christ being the object. I see instead the object that must be believed upon, in order to receive eternal life, is simply and only Jesus.

YES.... Jesus Christ is the object of our faith. When we place our faith in Him (the object), we are placing it in Him FOR ETERNAL LIFE. In other words, we are depending on Jesus, and Him alone to eternally save us. He alone is the object of our faith.

Are we saying the same thing here?
I wasn't sure.

A person can't be saved eternally if they haven't placed their faith in Jesus to save them eternally.

Most people have a WORKS mind set to get them to heaven. They believe something about Jesus, but not as the giver of eternal life. They're depending on Him PLUS their part. That's works. That's not believing in Jesus. To believe in Jesus (in the salvation way) is to believe that He alone saves. If a person doesn't believe in Him alone as the one who saves eternally then they have NOT believed in Jesus (in a saving way).

A person may come to believe a lot of good, right things about Jesus like..... He loves us, He died for me, He cares about me, He's the creator, etc., etc., but if they have never depended on Him (the object) to eternally save them, then they have not believed.

Perhaps you're believing the same thing I am, but just saying it different. Jesus is the object of my faith. I look to Him alone to save me eternally from hell. He is the only way to God the Father. He alone gives life. This life is eternal. When I have eternal life, I have HIM because He is the eternal ONE. He is the only One who can save. A person must believe in Him to save eternally (eternal life) or they haven't yet believed in Him in a saving way.

Are we still talking different language here? Do you and I agree on this? I appreciate your kindness always. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on your blog.

In Jesus' love,
Diane
:-)

alvin said...

Hi Michele

You said:
The juxtaposing, I don't know if it is necessary.... The alternatives to the gospel you state above, does not have automatic equality to trusting in self. We are talking a matter of content, true content, that must be believed. We both agree, I think, that false content, like that you actually did have concerning self-righteousnesss, does not save.

Michele if what your saying is true this verse would read like this:
Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.
But it doesn’t read like that Jesus Himself has given us the CONTENT she MUST believe:
“If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

Why did she NEEED to know the gift of God? Because faith is a proposition, and the proposition over and over that Jesus makes in the Gospel of John is the one that believes in Him has eternal life and will not perish. Why people want to go to other books of the bible to find out what we are to believe to have eternal life is beyond me. Also people seem to want to use the word receive as if receive defines believe but it is the other way around as we see in John 1:12. All of this type of thought makes the saving proposition blurry and more can be read in then the simple giving and receiving of a gift that is simply by believing Jesus promise. That is why we have all of these unscriptural sayings “invite Jesus into your heart,” “if Jesus isn’t Lord then He isn’t Lord at all.” These sayings imply that it’s more then the giving and receiving of a gift but that it is a relationship. And we know that it is a relationship, but we know that relationship has more to do with just a gift, but keeping His commandments. You see why we need to not give any less content then Jesus gives and not anymore. Even at the end of the Bible in Rev 22:17 the water is offered again as something a person can take freely. I know Jesus is eternal life but if He wants to give Himself as a gift, I think we should make clear what the content is. They need to know what the gift of God is, AND who it is who says to you…..
Paul knew what the content was, he knew he was beliving in Jesus FOR eternal life (1 Tim 1:16).
I kinda had to give a quick response, I’m switching over from days to nights right now for ten weeks.
Michele all the verses you gave me didn’t have eternal life mentioned one time, and the first one spoke of forgiveness. All of these are not clear but would have to be explained further to understand, because forgiveness is a sanctification issue also. Why do we want to go to books of the bible which are written to believers concerning the Nation Israel (only go unto the Jews) and discipleship’s high cost, and repentance is required. Or baptism and faith saves (Mark 16:16). When we can go to the book that is specifically written for the purpose people might believe in Jesus for eternal life without any mention of repentance, and only one of forgiveness of sins?(John 20:23) Why complicate things or make things blurry on what exactly Jesus is offering . . . . a gift a little child could understand and believe and know they are going to heaven . . .John 3:16.

God Bless You Michele . . .And I hope you and your family enjoy the gift Jesus has given this Christmas Season . . .eternal life!

alvin

Diane said...

Hi again Michele,

I hope I'm not over doing it by commenting again. Forgive me if I am. I was just thinking about what Alvin has pointed out, and it's a great point, and it's right there in the Bible from the very mouth of Jesus. That's what makes it so good.
There's 2 things that are obvious in that portion of scripture.
1) She had to know what the gift is and....
2) She had to know who the Giver is!

Jesus is the giver of the gift.
Jesus gives eternal life.
Believe in the GIVER for the gift and you have it.
OBJECT of our faith..... Jesus
For His gift....... eternal life

Even in John 3:16 it's the same thing...
For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only Son that whoever believes in Him WILL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

To believe in Jesus is to rely on Him for everlasting life. He is the object we must rely on (believe).

An example......
"Believe in President Bush and you will be safe from another terror attack here in the U.S."
(Whether or not that's true is not the point. The point is to believe in President Bush for something specific.)
If I believed that statement I would be believing in President Bush for something specific. It would be to keep me safe from another terrorist attack on me in the U.S. If I really believe in him, I would know that I was going to be kept safe and I wouldn't have to worry.
So when the Bible says.....
whoever believes in Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life, it's saying to believe in Jesus (Object of our faith) for everlasting life.

The Bible doesn't just say believe in Jesus without defining what that means. There's lots of people who believe in Jesus in the sense that they believe He lived and died, and is even the Son of God. But they're still not saved because they haven't believed IN HIM (the object of their faith) for His gift offered.... everlasting life.
That's not just me saying this. It's not just my theology. It's exactly what the Bible states so clearly.
To believe in Jesus (in a saving way) is to believe in HIM for eternal life. Whatever you want to call it, you believe that your eternal destiny is safe with God because of Jesus (object). Only JESUS can take us to heaven to live with God forever. He alone is the object of our faith. Eternal life is not the object. Eternal life is what He gives us when we believe in Him. Just like in the verse Alvin quoted.... you are believing in the Person for the gift that He is offering. To be eternally saved (to have eternal life) you MUST believe in the GIVER (JESUS) for the gift offered. According to the Bible the only way a person can be saved eternally is to believe in Jesus to eternally save them.

Some people come to faith in Jesus for eternal life knowing a lot of truth about Him. Some come to Him for eternal life knowing very little. But everyone comes the same way....... through faith in JESUS (Him alone) for eternal life. That's where we all begin as a child of God. Then starts our journey in the Christian life as a born again believer.

I know I repeated myself a lot here. Forgive me for that. I just have such a strong desire to clearly make the point of how to be saved. I hope I'm not sounding unkind. I don't mean it that way at all.

I love talking with you Michele. You have a tender heart for God, and I thank you for this opportunity to talk about Him.

All because of His wonderful grace,
Diane
:-)

alvin said...

Hi Michele

Thank you Diane for kind words, my heart is the same as yours. You are such an example for me, if only I could articulate with the love you show. I read my thought's over again and even though I believe they are true, I don't show whats in my heart like you do. Thank you Diane!
Thank you too Michele for being so kind!

alvin

Diane said...

Alvin,

You always encourage me and say the nicest things. Thank you for that. You are a kind person. You have a passion and it is to share the wonderful news of salvation clearly with anyone who will hear.
Michele has been so kind as to let us express our passions here on her blog.

Thanking God for my blogging friends,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane!

You are always so sweet and humble, the award for those qualities in my eyes, has belonged to you. I just appreciate your soul so much!

You said:
Are we still talking different language here? Do you and I agree on this? I appreciate your kindness always. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on your blog.

:D It is I who is honored, and, yes, I think I just don't speak clearly.

I do not think eternal life is apart of the mandatory equation for salvation. It's like being baptized in water. Good, but not necessary to receive the Spirit. Knowing that Jesus alone gives eternal life, is an emphasis on two things:

1- eternal life should be associated with the idea of being saved, should be associated with the identity and work of Jesus

2- faith and works do not mix. An excellent message, mind you, but not necessary for salvation. It was only years after people were getting saved by the declaration of the Word of God, that they had to hold a council and determine if works were in fact a part, and the answer was, no. How did they prove the answer, was no? They said "Do you remember how God saved the Gentiles? I do! I was there! I saw the Spirit poured out on them because of faith, just like we Jews experienced in Pentecost. Therefore, let us not put any burden on them." And that became an established teaching of the church - salvation is by grace through faith, not of our selves, it is a gift of God. But Jesus didn't teach this quite so heavily, probably not hardly at all in the gospel of John. Though always, you may infer it from the circumstances in John, that does not give you the room to demand it as essential for the message to save.

Does this make sense? I hope so!! :D

Reading more posts, now.... Let's see what Alvin has said :D

Thanks, Michele

Sanctification said...

Diane,

Let me make double sure I explained myself.

I want to say that if one wants to be saved, they should trust Jesus to save them. This includes neither of your qualities of "alone" or "eternal life," though both are true, both are part of the gospel presentation of demonstrating the identity and work of a Savior.

What must be believed and what brings them to believe are sometimes, sometimes different things. I'm saying that what I need to be saved, is to Christ by faith.

At least, that's where I am. Okay, now, moving on as promised... :D

Michele

Sanctification said...

Alvin,

Hi!

You said:
Why did she NEEED to know the gift of God? Because faith is a proposition, and the proposition over and over that Jesus makes in the Gospel of John is the one that believes in Him has eternal life and will not perish.

Again, the gift and the who, are the faith-building declarations of her exposure to Christ. But what saves her? Trust, is the conduit, like a straw, that when sucked draws up water out of the glass and into the body.

Jesus is the water. Jesus is received by faith. Jesus gives freedom from punishment for sins, He gives an opportunity for relationship if we will walk in His Spirit, He gives a future salvation from the presence of sin. Jesus is our very life.

The Living Water is the Spirit, it is Jesus.

You said:
forgiveness is a sanctification issue also

Okay, I haven't sorted that out yet, thank you.

...I'm thinking.

I too hope you are enjoying the nearness of Christmas,
Michele

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane,

Comment as often as you have ideas!! I just love it....

You said:
The Bible doesn't just say believe in Jesus without defining what that means. There's lots of people who believe in Jesus in the sense that they believe He lived and died, and is even the Son of God. But they're still not saved because they haven't believed IN HIM (the object of their faith) for His gift offered.... everlasting life.

There's still a middle ground you haven't admitted or perhaps noticed. Believing that Jesus was real, or perhaps trusting that he was real, as opposed to putting trust in Jesus for their needs, are two different things. One is a mental assent (I think you're depicting) and another is trusting Jesus to do or act on their behalf, according to the hope laid out by the Word of God, the testimony made of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. The Word of God declares that we ought to look to Him for all kinds of things. When someone hears those promises and looks to Jesus as the source of their fulfillment, salvation happens. That's the model Abraham handed down to us, by which we ought to expect righteousness in this new covenant of God.

You said:
Some people come to faith in Jesus for eternal life knowing a lot of truth about Him. Some come to Him for eternal life knowing very little. But everyone comes the same way....... through faith in JESUS (Him alone) for eternal life.

Diane, it's hard for me to comprehend how narrow your view of salvation is. I hope that is not offensive. Perhaps after everything you've been through with the controversy, it's nice to have a change of being called too conservative?? :D I hope you might smile.

I don't want to know diddly-squat about eternal life. If I'm a teenager. Or if I'm an athiest. The afterlife is like bonus-round. What matters to me is here and now. Can Jesus put food on my table? Can He protect me from the abuser? Can He love, me?

THAT'S WHAT I CALL, "SALVATION"!!

:D (Got a little fired-up there. Ahem.)

Michele

Sanctification said...

Diane & Alvin,

I'm so glad you came back. Sorry I didn't answer for a couple weeks, when lots of things started happening in free grace. I didn't keep track mentally of where we were. So, I'm glad you came back. Don't give up on me, I've gotta lay out all my ducks in a row so you can knock them out, one at a time.

:D Michele

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

Thank you for being kind to me. I appreciate that.

I think you and I do differ on what a person must believe to be saved. I thought we were just not communicating. I thought it was just a semantic problem. But I actually think now that we disagree. But you have been kind to me. You've allowed me the privilege of commenting on your blog. Thank you so much for that.

Here's your words that have made me realize that we believe different things.....

You said....
"putting trust in Jesus for their needs"
This is where we differ. Nobody is saved who just believes in Jesus for their needs. Lots of lost people believe in Him for that.
Cornelius (in Acts 10), called a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always..... (vs. 4) whose prayers were answered by God... "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God".....
STILL had to be saved. He wasn't yet saved. God was going to send him Peter to tell him how to be saved (Acts 11:14).

This salvation is not talking about just saved from whatever troubles we are experiencing here in life. It's talking about an eternal salvation. Yes, our salvation starts the moment we believe, but that salvation is eternal. It's trusting God for our eternal well being. Not just to meet our needs in time.

You said....
The Word of God declares that we ought to look to Him for all kinds of things. When someone hears those promises and looks to Jesus as the source of their fulfillment, salvation happens.
This is where we disagree. It's not looking to Jesus to fulfill a need, but looking to Jesus for everlasting life. We need to be born again. Then He promises to meet our needs. He always works for our good. Sometimes He disciplines us when needed. But these promises are to those who are already saved. Before He will meet our earthly needs, He first meets our eternal needs.

You said....
I don't want to know diddly-squat about eternal life. If I'm a teenager. Or if I'm an athiest. The afterlife is like bonus-round. What matters to me is here and now. Can Jesus put food on my table? Can He protect me from the abuser? Can He love, me?
Michele, I was a teenager (16) when I first got saved. I wanted to know that my eternity was safe. I wanted to know that I wouldn't go to hell. I found the One who could save me eternally, and I was thrilled. My life has never been the same.
Jesus will meet our individual needs, but not until we first come to Him in faith for eternal life.

BTW..... I'm not saying that He doesn't ever do good things for unbelievers. He does. But He does it for reasons only known to Him. No guarantees. But there are guarantees for the born again believers..... promises that He'll never leave us or forsake us. We, His children are the ones He cares for with an everlasting love. I will forever praise Him for His wonderful, glorious gift of eternal life. I'm so undeserving.

Thank you again, Michele, for allowing me to comment and even disagree with you on your very own blog. You have been kind, and I thank you so much for that opportunity.

In Jesus' love,
Diane

Missy said...

Michele,

I just wanted to say, after reading your comments, you and I have almost identical beliefs. I get it.

Missy

alvin said...

Hi Michele and Missy

Jesus answered and said to her,
"If you knew the gift of God
and
who it is who says to you,
"Give Me a drink,'
you would have asked Him,
and He would have given you
living water."


Jesus answered and said to her,
"Whoever drinks this water will thirst again,
"but whoever drinks of the
water
that I shall give him will
never thirst.
But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

The women said to Him,
"Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst,
nor come here to draw."

The women said to Him,
"I know that Messiah is coming"
who is called Chrit),
"When He comes, He will tell us all things."

Jesus said to her,
"I who speak to you am He"

The women at the well "finally did get it!"
She knew the gift of God that it was a forever gift that once she drank she would never thirst again.
And,
she knew who it was who said to her
'Give me a drink,'



It REALLY is a GIFT anyone can
take FREELY!



Enjoy the wonderful Christmas Season and the eternal gift Jesus has given to those who have believed in Him for it!

alvin

alvin said...

Hi Michele and Missy
This is concerning forgiveness and eternal life.
Repentance for forgiveness of sins is to be preached! All men are called on to repent! It’s repentance toward God and Faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Christian makes a great error when he tries putting eternal life and forgiveness in the same category.
The Gospel of John was written for the purpose people might have life (John 20:31).
Over and over again in the Gospel of John the ONLY condition for the gift of eternal life is to believe in Jesus for it.
There is not ONE mention of repentance, and only ONE mention of forgiveness.
And even though eternal life is offered over and over again as a gift one can take, forgiveness is not offered as something one can just take freely.
“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (John 20:23).
We see this put in action in Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Here we see forgiveness of sins wasn’t something you could just freely take like eternal life is (John 3:16;5:24;4:10;6:47; Rev 22:17).
Why?
Because repentance for forgiveness of sins has to do with HARMONY with God concerning your sin and is personal.
Where as eternal life is offered freely for anyone to take (Rev 22:17).
That is why it’s “repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.
John in his gospel is concerned with the gift of “eternal life” because it is the main issue, and sin is not.
Why?
Because “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” Jesus is not only our propitiation but the propitiation for the whole world (1John 2:2).
This is confirmed at the Great White Throne, the reason people are cast into the lake of fire is because they do not have LIFE. Their names are not found in the book of life! Sin as sin is not mentioned ONE time, only their works and that is not EVEN the reason for their condemnation BUT IT’S BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE LIFE!
So what if someone believes in Jesus FOR ETERNAL LIFE what do they have?
They are regenerated (born again) have the gift of eternal life, and they are given the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are justified before God and granted forgiveness based upon Jesus sacrificial death. They are in harmony with God and thus have fellowship.
So why do we preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins?
So that the wayward sinner might change his mind about his sins and seek forgiveness from God. And when he has forgiveness he is in harmony with his Creator because he has believed in Jesus FOR eternal life.
Remember forgiveness is PERSONAL and has to do with sin, but eternal life is a gift anyone can take freely because it has nothing to do with sin because sin has ALL been paid for.
Proof of that is the invitation to anyone to take the living water freely that is given on the last page of Scripture Revelation 22:17.
What people need is life, even though everyone’s sins have been paid for in full they still go to hell unforgiven because their name is not found written in the book of life.
They don’t go to hell because they are unforgiven they go to hell because they do not have life!
This is why the gift of eternal life is so important to KNOW you have BECAUSE when you have believed Jesus for His gift your name is written in the Book of Life!

alvin

alvin said...

Hi Michele, this will be my last post . . .hope you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!!

Hi Diane

I posted that at both Missy's site and Michele's site. And now I'm going to post this last part. Does it sound clear to you?

Many of the Israelites went on to believe in the One who was to come after John, and entered into Harmony with God through the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4,5 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of remission of sin.
Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
But many of them did not go on to faith in the Christ, national Israel rejected their Messiah. Repentance should lead to harmony with God. But forgiveness is not received until they believed in the One who was to come for eternal life. Just as the ones in Acts 2 who Peter told had crucified their Christ, before they would enter into harmony with God they needed to repent and be baptized then God would forgive them and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. But remember they already had the gift of eternal life the moment they believed Jesus was the Christ (1 John 5:1) when they said "what shall we do" showed that they had believed they had killed their Christ.
Cornelius entered into harmony with God through new birth just as we do. He had repented long before turning from the pagan gods. He didn't need to be told to repent because there was not anything blocking him from believing like the ones at Anthens who were worshiping other gods (Acts 17:22-31). Cornelius simply needed to believe in Jesus for eternal life to enter into harmony with God and the family of God. Luke said in Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." Luke stressed here the remission of sins because Peter would later have to give an account for going into the home of an uncircumcised person and having fellowship with him. By stressing forgiveness of sins the Jews would now know that the Gentiles were in fellowship with God. Cornelius believed in Jesus for eternal life which brought him into harmony with God and he was now part of the family of God by new birth.
Remember these are two different things: Repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance toward God has to do with our sins and can bring harmony with God. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ brings new birth and can be taken freely by faith alone in Christ alone. Repentance should lead to harmony with God which is received only when one believes in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

alvin

Lou Martuneac said...

Michele:

I see that Alvin (an advocate of the Crossless gospel heresy) is propagating another one of the late Zane Hodges’s dangerous reductionist heresies. This time on repentance. Virtually no one outside the Hodges, Wilkin GES accept or have ever held to the absurdities on repentance that Alvin is parroting from Hodges.

Ron Shea wrote a two part series titled, Drifting Far Off the Marker, which is an article that details how Zane Hodges steadily drifted into deeper and more egregious doctrinal extremes right up until the time of his passing, which have become his tragic legacy.

From Part 2 of Shea’s series I am pasting an extended section to reveal the absurdity of Alvin’s corrupting the doctrine of repentance by regurgitating the anti-biblical views of Zane Hodges.

Lord willing this comment from Brother Shea will protect any one from coming under the influence of the unbiblical teaching on repentance that Alvin is posting at your blog.


LM



From my seminary days I can still recall Hodges’s vivid illustration in his class on Hebrews . . . “How shall we escape if we neglect . . . if we . . . DRIFT AWAY!” Zane’s imagery was stark. Passing a buoy on the ocean, there is no perception of movement, as on a river. The ocean is a uniform body with no apparent relative motion. But ignore the buoy for 20 minutes, and look back for it, and you find that you have drifted far of your marker. The message was that it can happen to any of us. 

I was so overwhelmed by his imagery; I have always prayed that after running the race, I would not be disqualified.

Little was I to imagine it was my beloved instructor who was drifting, and who, for his own reasons, never looked back over his shoulder to see where the buoy was. And when he was finally told that the buoy was three miles northwest, he no longer saw it as a marker near a parcel of solid ground. It was only a milestone of progress, as Zane advanced in his wobbly way toward some strange new doctrine. It was the Christ of Jackson Pollack and Salvador Dali. The “upper story” Christ described by Francis Schaffer. It was a Jesus that could be filled with emotions or doctrine, or any other baggage one sought to bring to it. An inflatable rubber man. Stuff him with what you will. Make his ears big, or is feet long. Stuff him with hay, or fill him with air. As long as the nametag says “Jesus,” it’s all the same. 

Were this the only error, it would be a tragedy. But suddenly, not only the cross of Christ is miles behind us in the rear view window, so is grace.

To appreciate how this came about, it is important to reconstruct Hodges on the concept of Repentance.

Grace, my friend, is not the SUGGESTION that eternal life be offered freely and received freely. It is the demand. If it is not received freely, it is not grace. The promise is made void. And throughout Scripture, in many different forms, the word "Repent" demands of those who believe in salvation by works . . . who believe in salvation by self righteousness . . . that they must change their mind. They must come to regard their works as incapable of earning, or even contributing to their eternal life. Grace is not the preferred route to justification and eternal life, it is the only way. “For if it is by grace, than is it no more of works.”

Man is not the co-savior of his eternal soul. If Christ, and Christ alone, is not one’s Savior, one has no Savior. Although faith makes an affirmative statement of man’s response, it is repentance that proclaims that faith in Christ, may not be sullied with the prideful addition of man’s works. Salvation is not an amalgamation of Christ plus works. It is through Christ alone. Repentance teaches us that the message of grace is not a suggestion. It is a demand.

And now we come to the great circular logic of Zane Hodges, former heir apparent of the Free Grace mantel . . .John doesn’t teach repentance to be saved, and John is sufficient for salvation, therefore, repentance is not needed for salvation.” Hmmmmm? Does that depend, perhaps . . . on your definition of “repent?”

Hodges has come to believe, against the full body of Greek literature, that repentance is turning from one’s sins. There are nuances where honest theologians can disagree. This is not one of them. The belief that repentance somehow takes sin as its automatic object is indefensible from Greek. It is bluntly contradicted by a mass of secular literature as well as Scriptural usage.

Because Hodges has retained his commitment against Lordship Salvation, the only way he is able to teach a Reformed definition of repentance (a turning from sin) while preserving grace is to claim that “repentance” is never presented as a requirement for salvation in the New Testament.

However, an impartial estimate would identify 36 separate occasions in which repentance is presented as a requirement, or cause of eternal salvation. Matthew 3:2; Matthew 3:8; 3:11; 9:13, 11:20; 11:21; 21:19; 21:32; Mark 1:4, 1:15; 2:17; 6:12; Luke 3:3; 3:8; 5:32; 10:13; 11:32; 13:3, 5; 15:7; 16:30; 24:7; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 13:24; 17:30; 19:4; 20:21; 26:20 (2x); Romans 2:4; Hebrews 6:1; 2 Peter 3:9. These passages are identified with no theological agenda other than the most likely meaning suggested (or demanded) by the context.

For Hodges position to be sustainable, he must be able to demonstrate by the preponderance of the evidence that NONE of these passages are directed to the question of eternal salvation. Five verses would require exegetical gymnastics. Thirty six requires an exegetical contortionist. And it clearly requires an agenda . . . reaching the conclusion, and then hammering the Scriptures to fit that conclusion.

The argument that John never speaks of “repentance” is akin to the argument that the rapture is not a biblical doctrine because the word “rapture” is not in the Bible. That is indeed true. But the question is more accurately “is the doctrine of the rapture taught in the Bible?” I have found, in my experience with the one-verse Willies of this world, that this question does not cut any ice. So now, I simply ask, “well how would you translate ‘deharpadzo’?” (“deharpadzo” in 1 Thess. 4:17 is translated “caught up” but could equally be translated “rapture.” They mean the same thing.)

The word “Jesus” has been lofted into the existentialists’ upper story where it has been reduced to whatever meaningless appellation the subjective observer would ascribe to it. In quite the opposite fashion, the word repentance has been hammered into a preconceived mold and nailed in place. It is no longer the concepts that matter, but hollow words devoid of content.

The repentance of Zane Hodges is essentially the same meaning as used in Reformed circles . . . repentance is a turning from sin. Hodges escapes from any taint of Lordship Salvation by claiming that the word “repent” is never used as a requirement for salvation, a dubious claim at best.

But more to the point, grace is not a suggestion that man may accept eternal life as a gift. Grace is the only way that man can be saved.

The synchertists must repent of dead works. They must renounce salvation through religion, ritualism, sacerdotalism, morality, and personal reformation. They must renounce all of these good and worthy things has having any contribution in their salvation. They must accept the gift as a gift. 

Adding Jesus to a long list of things one must do or be to attain eternal life is NOT the saving faith. And there is a word in Scripture that is frequently used to demand that faith in Christ is not saving faith unless it is faith in Christ Alone. And that word is REPENT.

In the 20th century, Free Grace theologians have systematically identified doctrines incompatible with the doctrine of Grace, salvation by water baptism, salvation by morality, salvation by religion, etc. The motivation of these many works was one thing and one thing only: To preserve the doctrine of grace from the pollution of man's self righteousness.

But what would Hodges now say to one who trusted in Christ plus baptism? Who trusted that, together with Jesus, the fact that they had been a virgin until their wedding night was the basis on which they had gained God’s acceptance. The person who believes their sins are washes away in sacerdotal acts of penance, nine first-Fridays, etc. What answer does Hodges have for such men? They are no longer required to repent of these works, because that is not the meaning of repentance in Hodges new system.

And so we ask again: If someone believes in Jesus, but also believes other things are necessary for eternal salvation, what must he do? In historic Free Grace circles, the “promise is made void,” (Romans 4:14, “grace is no more grace” (Romans 11:6-7), and “Christ is become of none effect unto you who would be justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.” (Gal. 5:1-4)

If Hodges makes an affirmative demand that such person renounce faith in their works, Hodges is teaching repentance whether or not he uses the word.

However, if Hodges no affirmative demand on such a person other than “to believe on Jesus” (a fact which the example has already stipulated), than grace is no longer the only way, but the preferred way of salvation.

And the man who would have been the elder statesman of the free-grace movement no longer sees the defense of Grace as critical, but only preferable. He is become a post-modernist deconstructionist movements of the 20th century. An heir to the linguistic absurdities of Witgenstein, who wrote many books and used many words to prove that words are too ambiguous to mean anything.

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I was compelled to respond to one comment here at your post. I know very well what he teaches, and I cringe at what he is doing in "defense of the faith." He THINKS he is doing God's will. God sees what he's doing, and someday he will give an account for it.
Before anyone attacks Zane Hodges for his teaching on repentance, why not first read his book, "HARMONY WITH GOD... A Fresh Look at Repentance."

Let me just say this. I learned a lot from reading that book. I do NOT just accept the teaching of any man. I never heard of Zane Hodges until the very end of the 1980s. At that time I came upon one of his books for the first time called "Absolutely Free." Chapter 12 was about this subject of repentance. This was new to me. I didn't understand it. But I read it and reread it. I looked everything up in the Bible many times, and then reread it again and again. I was being a Berean. I was checking in the Bible to see if what was being taught was true. I wanted proof that what this author was saying was biblical. After much prayer and digging I saw it!!! All the pieces fell into place. God was faithful to show me how repentance fits into his purposes. And all it did for me was to accent the truth of just how free God's gift of eternal life really is!!!

The short version.......
Repentance is NOT a requirement to receive God's free gift of eternal life. Only faith is required for that gift.
Does this teaching make Zane Hodges a heretic?

Repentance brings harmony with God. It's talking about being in fellowship with Him.
When a person is first born again by faith alone in Christ alone they are in fellowship with God immediately. When fellowship is broken because of sin then repentance is needed to restore that fellowship.
Does this teaching make Zane Hodges a heretic?

The book of Acts is a transitional book. Zane shows so beautifully and clearly in his book "Harmony With God" that there are exceptions to this rule with SOME (being immediately in fellowship when first born again) who were a part of Christ's crucifixion.... who also lived under the old dispensation and moved into the new dispensation. This is well explained in the book, and if you check out those verses in Acts carefully, you will see and understand CLEARLY these exceptions and the reasons for them. There were people who believed in Him for eternal life (born again) yet didn't yet have the Holy Spirit and couldn't receive Him until they repented and were baptized. YET THEY HAD ETERNAL LIFE. THEY WERE BORN AGAIN. This is NOT true today, and it was only true for SOME during that transitional period. To us this seems strange, like it can't be, but just think..... to them it was not a problem. O.T. believers did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them permanently until the church age. Read all about it in his book!!!!! It is biblical~!!!

Some unsaved people need to repent in order to be put into a position to hear and believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. This is NOT a requirement to be saved, but for some people it is what is needed in order to get them to the place where they have a heart that's willing to hear God and believe in Him for His gift.
Does this teaching make Zane Hodges a heretic?

Christians need to repent as God points out sin in their lives that is keeping them from doing God's will. In this case repentance is for believers.
Does this teaching make Zane Hodges a heretic?

Unbelievers and believers both need to repent of sinful actions that bring about God's judgment IN THIS LIFE. For the believer it could be something like (example) living in adultery. God will discipline those believers IN THIS LIFE if they don't repent. An unbeliever also can repent of sinful actions that avoid God's judgment in this life. Nations have avoided God's judgment when they repented of their sinful acts.
Does this teaching make Zane Hodges a heretic?

Tell me, what is so horrible about telling people that God has sent His Son to earth to give us a free gift. When we believe in the GIVER (Jesus Christ) for His free gift (eternal life), we have it. It's free. No strings attached. Only read John 4 to see this so clearly!!!
Does this make Zane Hodges a heretic? If so, I'm a heretic, too. And I'm so glad that I am because it's what Jesus came to earth to give us, and I will forever proclaim His wonderful, glorious truth. It's so amazing!!! It's so wonderful~!!!

Some don't yet understand the difference between repentance and faith. Please read the book, "Harmony With God." Check out in the Bible everything that is taught. Be a Berean.

Michele, thank you again for being so kind as to let me respond on your blog.

All because of His wonderful grace,
Diane

Sanctification said...

Lou,

You said:
I see that Alvin (an advocate of the Crossless gospel heresy) is propagating another one of the late Zane Hodges’s dangerous reductionist heresies. This time on repentance. Virtually no one outside the Hodges, Wilkin GES accept or have ever held to the absurdities on repentance that Alvin is parroting from Hodges.

But Charlie Bing said on October 6, 2008:
Some teachers believe that salvation requires both faith and repentance. However the meaning of repentance is specifically: a change of the "inner," a change of the "heart," or, a change of the "mind." We know that not all kinds of repentance leads unto salvation. God, in the Septuagint, "repents" 76 times. There is the "Harmony with God" view of repentance, which teaches that repentance is pre-evangelistic, or also a component of maintaining fellowship with God. This teaching is consistent with the free grace gospel.

-- FGA Conference Presentation, paraphrased with permission

I beg you, I beg you, please do not speak on behalf of an entire theology, an entire movement and especially on behalf of the entire free grace alliance organization.

When there is a contradiction, someone must be an apparent liar either from ignorance or else from a desire to oppress those who are different. Neither of these options are desirable and yet here I am.

Do as I do. I had heard for months the personal opinions of Hodges' gospel by a man who originally founded the FGA yet I did not speak on his behalf; I waited for him to do it for himself. Share your theological beliefs but share them as your own, those of men whom you personally have been given permission, too, but no farther. I say this to you as a friend, as a rebuke from one who cares.

Come here and fight for my understanding of the gospel, I invite it and am grateful for it.

Humbly,
Michele

Sanctification said...

Alvin & Diane,

Thank you for leaving comments. Now that I have lost my own free free grace teacher :( I realize it's time to begin reading the materials out there. So I do thank you for sharing your beliefs here. Don't hesitate to share even if I don't reply immediately, please! I appreciate how you addressed your rebuttal, to me, because I want to hear it without possibly starting WWIII.

:D God bless you and Lou,

Michele

Lou Martuneac said...

Michele:

I cannot know what your former pastor taught in relation to the FG movement, but I do know this. In Alvin and Diane you have attracted the attention of disciples of the egregious reductionist heresies of Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin and GES REDEFINED Free Grace faction.

Is “REDEFINED” Free Grace Theology, Free Grace Theology?

I would draw your attention to Is This Heresy? This article and thread addresses the heretical beliefs of the GES's Crossless gospel and one of its most vocal instigators.

The GES version of the Gospel has been “REDEFINED” into a reductionist assault on the necessary content of saving faith.

The GES has corrupted and assaulted the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ whose birth we celebrate.

Beware of and flee from their attempts to deceive and corrupt your theology.


LM

Sanctification said...

Lou,

Thank you for these aids. Many of your links I have read before though I can't remember if I've read all of these ones specifically. I look forward to checking them out sometime soon. I want to apologize for the lack of committment on my part to follow through with the materials we've been discussing lately, regarding IFB and GBA and Pickering and so forth. I guess I've been trying to manage the superficial stuff while I've been busy, but, I am extremely excited to read and think about it. I hope to be helpful to you though I don't mean to offend you by saying so. Also, I want to wish you a blessed Christmas, though I am confident I am the least of your acquaintences who wish you a blessing.

Michele

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I just wanted to say again that I appreciate meeting you and talking with you on your blog about this subject of salvation. I know that you have disagreements with me. I appreciate your honesty and your kindness. I want to end my comments here by just giving thanks to Jesus Christ for my eternal salvation. He gave me a gift that was free to me when I believed in Him as the only way to the Father. But it wasn't free to Him. He had to die and suffer a terrible death in order to purchase my salvation. I will forever be grateful and praise Him for His love towards me and His marvelous undeserved gift of eternal life.

May you and your family have a very Merry Christmas, and may your studies in the Word lead you in the way of all truth.

Rejoicing because of Jesus,
Your friend,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sanctification said...

Diane,

Thank you for the blessing. I look forward to reading these scriptures. I've been reading along for months as you have just set your heart on the Word of God at Antonio's blog. I am most grateful that you let me share my opinion, you may not realize but I consider myself very uneducated on this so as you teach, I process. After Christmas I expect to reply, if you don't mind the delay?

I hope you have a wonderful Christmas!!

Thankful for your devotion to God,
Michele

Sanctification said...

Missy,

I'm so glad to reconnect with you, I hope you and your family are well. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who reads the scriptures the way I do, yeah, thanks for saying that. I don't know if I'm right, anyway, but I have to begin with what I know, so hopefully you can make an occasional comment if you get it quicker than I do....

Have a great Christmas! Michele

Sanctification said...

Alvin,

Thanks again for leaving these comments here. I hope you will bear with me a little longer?

In the meantime I hope you too have a wonderful Christmas!

So grateful for the Savior...

Michele

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I thought that I had ended my comments on your blog, but then your nice comment to me made me think that maybe you were still interested in discussing the subject of salvation with me. If so, is it OK to change my mind about commenting?
:-)

Would you mind giving me a verse in the Bible that tells YOU what you must do to be born again?
Then in your own words could you tell me EXACTLY what a person must believe to be born again?
In other words, I'm trying to understand what it is that you would share with a person about how to be saved.

Thanks so much.

I hope you and your family had a very Merry Christmas.

Your friend,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Diane,

Thanks for ministering to me, it's nice to be on a receiving end.

I would say the gospel can be most simply expressed in John 6:28-29

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


I see the Deity, the Work, the requirement of faith alone, all in this statement. It is the expression of both justification and sanctification. It is a complete and yet introductory gospel message, only waited by a student to learn more from the scriptures what each of these individual greek words represent.

Thanks for this opportunity,
Michele

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

Hope you had a very Merry Christmas.

Thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate that.

You and I do see things differently. You're still my friend though, and there may be times that I'll visit here just to see what's going on.

I hope I haven't been offensive. It's just that I'm so passionate about this most wonderful gift that God has for every person on this planet. I get "crazy excited" about telling people about it. But that's only because I love people and want them to know of God's most wonderful, glorious free gift. Would you allow me one more time just to share it with you and others on your personal blog? If not, I will understand if you choose to delete this post. I will not be offended.

God sent His Son, Jesus, into the world to die for our sins. He rose and lives forevermore. Everybody's sins are paid for in full. Sin is no longer an issue that keeps people from going to heaven to live with God. Sin has been taken out of the way. But people aren't automatically saved because of that. Because sin has been removed by Jesus (paid by Him), He now can offer us LIFE with Him forever. There is no longer a sin barrier that keeps us from God. Jesus paid the price. Because of that He is the only One who can give us the gift of eternal LIFE. This life is not just a length of time. It's the very life of God. Everybody (saved and lost) will exist forever. But not everybody will have God's LIFE forever. Those who are lost will experience eternal death. They will be separated from God forever when they die. Death means separation. They will not have His life...... a LIFE that is sinless and able to enjoy our Heavenly Father forever. Jesus Christ IS eternal life Himself. When we have eternal life, we have HIM. Unsaved people exist forever in death. They will forever have their old sin nature. I think this means that they will forever have sinful desires that can never be quenched. Probably an alcoholic will always want and need alcohol but won't be able to get it. This is just what I think eternal death will be like. Whatever it is, it is terrible, and God is not there.
When a person believes in Jesus Christ for everlasting life, they get HIS LIFE immediately. The new nature that a believer receives never sins. The sins a believer does in this life comes from the flesh, not from God. But those who have life NOW go to live with God forever when they die leaving behind their old sin nature.... never to sin again. Those who have lived faithful Christian lives will be rewarded perfectly as God sees fit. Whatever these rewards are, they are some kind of capacity to enjoy Him deeper and more intimately forever.

Everybody's sin has been paid for. The issue is LIFE!!! The people who have life NOW (God's eternal life) go to heaven when they die. The people who don't have LIFE are separated from God forever in their sins.

All the other truths about Jesus are wonderful. Learn them, rejoice in them, but take His gift. You don't have to wonder if you've believed enough truths about Him to be saved. All you have to do is take His gift by faith and you will KNOW that you have eternal life. That's Jesus' promise to us.
This is what gives me joy in life...... telling people about the gift of God that is found in Jesus Christ alone.

John 3:16..... For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but HAVE everlasting life.

I recommend Zane Hodges' book, "The Atonement." It will answer a lot of questions straight from the Bible.

I wish you a very blessed New Year.

Your friend because of Jesus,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane!

Just one small part in my dissonance with common evangelical doctrine was this issue that you explained so well in your post, that sin has already been dealt with, so, sin is no longer the issue in coming to salvation. I noticed these scriptures a few years ago which bonded me to free grace theology when I stumbled into it.

I remember sitting in one of the classes where it was brought up, whether or not turning from sin was necessary for salvation and I spun in my bible to the page as the prof quoted it himself:

John 16:8-9

When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

Diane, I want to keep discussing the gospel and the content of saving faith, please feel completely welcome to discuss with as many and as long of posts as you like! I just don't want you to be disheartened... if I take a couple days? It is a blessing to me I assure you!

Thank you for the scriptures, it is a pleasant thing to agree about the issue of sin and the accomplishment of the cross!

God bless,
Michele

alvin said...

Hi Michele

Here is a good short read on the sin of unbelief.

alvin

Sanctification said...

Alvin,

Oh, I can't wait to read it. I haven't heard but two people ever say this is true (both free grace). It's a burden to me.

Thank you!!
Michele

David Wyatt said...

Michele,

Thanks for putting up with me! I reread your testimony, & it blessed me again. I have a nasty tendency to keep looking back to when i believe I was saved, & overanalyzing it to see if I knew enough, believed enough, etc etc ad infinitim until I am tired to the point of discouragement. The Lord has been to patient & kind through it all, but I get tired of myself sometimes! But anyway, what I wanted to mention here is a statement that Missy made way back on July 19, '08 when she said, "It is most often fellow believers that will make us question our salvation through Christ..." You know I never thought of that until she said it. That is often true, whether we mean to or not. I also appreciated something else you said in your testimony that I've often wondered about & even spoken against in the past. You said that "...we are convinced that because Satan masquerades as an angel of light so we must also not trust our experiences. But my experience led to Christ, not to deception: "wisdom is justified by her children." matt 11:19..." It is true that he does, & it is also true that sometimes our experiences can deceive, which is also why i think I have overanalyzed my past so many times. I want to be so sure, & i end up being like what Jesus warned against in Luke 9:62, looking back so much that I'm not fit for the Kingdom. Of course i don't mean losing salvation which is impossible, but just being an unworthy servant of His. I'm such a mess! If it weren't for His wondrous grace, I'd be lost forever! You may never see this but I just had to write it. I love my Savior so much but I fail Him so often. Thank GOD for Romans 5:19-21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless.

Sanctification said...

Hi David, I do see your comments :) You're right, Missy's comment is huge. Because you wrote this, I wanted to share my weakness too so I wrote a quick post about it yesterday. We're all weak in the same way, and we need each other, I need others.

God bless you too!

Anonymous said...

Hi Michele, and David:)

I know it's not easy to believe that Jesus would really give the gift of eternal life freely with no strings attached, espeacially if youve been fed alot of Lordship Salvation which mixes something that cost everything like discipleship with the gift of eternal life. But it's true and that's the only way you can receive it is by faith alone in Jesus for His gift. I got clear on this fact by reading Zane Hodges book "Absolutely Free" after I had cried out to God to show me the difference between the gift of eternal life and discipleship. Reading my Bible and the false teaching I was getting at the time I knew eternal life was a gift you could never lose but didn't understand how discipleship fit in because I knew it cost everything. So I knew I was missing something, and that's when Zane brought clarity to the picture.
I read my testimony up above. At that time I was willing to put my own experince aside until I knew it lined up with Scripture. At twelve years old I knew back then I didn't understand the different meanings of the word "saved or salvation" we find in our bibles. That context was critical to know what the salvation was from, either the saving of your life or being saved from hell to name a couple. Anyone who has believed in Jesus to save them be it from going to hell or has given them the gift of eternal life however you want to articulate it as long as you understand Jesus is the One who has guaranteed your eternal destiny. Other words you are heaven bound by one act of faith you passed from death into life, youve believed biblical truth. I must say that the picture has been getting clearer and clearer concerning my personal salvation. Now I know that not understanding at the time the Greek word for Salvation or the difference between a gift you can take freely and discipleship is not a barrier from God saving us. As long as you are believing in Jesus alone for your eternal salvation your heaven bound. That's the faith of a child~! When a child receives a gift they are not thinking about how they can re-pay the person that has given it to them, but are simply filled with joy over the gift~! Jesus told the seventy returning from casting out demons in His name to rejoice because their names were written in heaven. Do you know? If you don't your rejoicing would be in vain~!
Here is my testimony with new light:)

Anonymous said...

I'll put a little flesh on some of these points, maybe to help someone see a difference. I know a time is BIG with some people, and this will show I think the difference between God's light and Godly sorrow producing repentance because I had both happen but at different times in my life.

Knowing the exact time you passed from death to life is beside the point. The point is you believe Jesus promise to give you eternal life. Therefore you KNOW you will never perish based solely on His word.
I know the difference from my own life of fearing hell and Godly sorrow producing repentance.
At the age of twelve I found myself at a summer Bible Camp looking up into the stars one night, and knowing that if i died right then I would be in hell. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). That meant I was receiving light concerning my sin (John 3:19,20). The next moment I knew that Jesus had died for my sins so I wouldn't have to go to hell but go to heaven with Him. At that moment I had believed He had saved me. My next thoughts were I needed to make a public profession by walking the isle the next day which scarred the daylight out of me. That was the baptist way, which I saw over and over my dad being a pastor. At that time my theology had many errors. I'm sure I was told that to be saved one needed to confess Christ. Which was true concerning the saving of the life of the one who had ALREADY been saved (from hell). But it was to late because Jesus had ALREADY given me His gift of eternal life in spite of my errors in theology. Why I say that is because when one believes that Jesus has saved them by faith alone they have believed in Him as the Christ and have passed from death into life . . . .done deal~!
I had an overwhelming joy after I had walked the isle the next day and wanted to share my joy with anyone who would listen.
I did not walk with the Lord until I was married, and we had our child some 35 years later. All I can say is God gave me MUCH grace. At that time Godly sorrow over my sin produced repentance in me (2 Cor 7:10). I shed many tears over my sin taking it all to the cross. I woke up the next day, and for the first time felt God's presence with me. I was in fellowship but still in ignorance concerning the different meanings of salvation. I'm sure that repentance had saved my life from being taken home early.

alvin:)

Anonymous said...

This is something Diane asked me about my testimony that might help clarify:)

When I said "I did not walk with the Lord until I was married, and we had our child some 35 years later. All I can say is God gave me MUCH grace." Yes I meant 35 years after I was saved. But I did at the age of around 26 start taking my family to Church. In fact Sheelagh and myself walked the isle together, and were baptized. I then tried living the Christian life but it was all in my own strength. I finally gave up when I couldn't do it, and thought the Christian way didn't work. The pastor came to my house later wanting me to get up and give my testimony while he was gone to fill the pulpit me and some other men. I wasn't going to get up in front of allot of people and tell them something I didn't think worked. Some ten years later after Godly sorrow caused repentance in me I went back to that Church and got up and gave my testimony. It seemed then I had power and a strong desire to live the Christian life but still didn't really understand the difference between the gift of eternal life and discipleship. So I was still doing my walk thinking it was just part of what a true believer does. So I'm sure my motives were all messed up, because I was telling my wife that was something a believer just does. I was just walking with an honest heart before God, and He was using me and working with me.

alvin:)

David Wyatt said...

Thanks Alvin. I am so thankful for the grace of God! So thankful for Christ & His cross! When my feelings start getting all confused & I see my weak works, or how sinful I am, I'm learning to stop & say something like, No, that's not the way it is. THIS is the truth: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." God Bless you Michele!

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin, so good to hear from you! I was at a seminar all day yesterday and I wanted you to know that I am challenged thinking about what you had to say. I've put a bridle on my excitement to get back by making myself do a chore and run an errand before I respond. :D

Anonymous said...

That's right David, if we looked to our performance to prove that we were saved we would end up like the Puritans who on their death beds were fearing hell because they looked back over their lives, and didn't see enough works to prove to themselves they were saved.
Jesus wants us to rejoice because our names are written in heaven, if our performance had anything to do with it there would be NO rejoicing~! Why? Because we could always see sin in our lives if were honest with ourselves.

alvin:)

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin,

"I know it's not easy to believe that Jesus would really give the gift of eternal life freely with no strings attached, espeacially if youve been fed alot of Lordship Salvation which mixes something that cost everything like discipleship with the gift of eternal life."

I went and reread your testimony above too since you were expanding it at least here (if it isn't elsewhere). Seems to me like you're qualified for so many opportunities by tremendous struggle. The two messages were so intertwined and of course. Another reason to be grateful for Hodges and the whole of Free Grace teaching. Charlie Bing said once at a conference that if the grace message is preached first (such as in Africa) they seem to stay healthy and strong, but preaching grace to those who've previously heard a mixed message even if they're eager to hear grace, it still takes a lot more work to make it stick. I think we both know at least the latter experience, however in some ways I think I can relate to the former too.

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin, you said,

Reading my Bible and the false teaching I was getting at the time I knew eternal life was a gift you could never lose but didn't understand how discipleship fit in because I knew it cost everything.

There are so many facets to the gospel that are just like that, difficult to understand. I've been reading your testimony several times. You are right it isn't important that someone know the exact moment they were saved in order to have assurance of salvation because assurance and faith come from the Word of God. I am curious how free grace people experience this journey toward ending the whole doubt-factor. That's what I want to know more about, for myself and in general. It seems to not end, even if it isn't anymore about knowing I/you have eternal life anymore. Doubt, the thing, remains. Like you said, you have been learning a lot about the truth and you know now that understanding the different meanings of the word 'salvation' isn't necessary in order to be saved with the faith like a child that justifies. I get that - how you had to go back and take what you know in detail, now, and re-apply it to know that without knowing, what you did understand and experience was still of God. I get that process. Big time. I think people want healing, like I said about myself in my latest post. Others are often telling me I think too deeply - and this is why. At some point it's time to stare my doubt squarely in the eye with Jesus at my side and say "That's enough - I'm taking this funny-business to the Father; He'll know what to do with it even if I don't have a single conviction to my name." It sounds like David Wyatt said the same. The woman at the well knew it without doubt, just because Jesus said it. That's what healing looks like to me, and that's where I want to be, by the grace of God.

I wish it was that simple. I wish those who have taught error hadn't intruded on what you knew, like it did for me too. When you were twelve and looking at the stars you received light about your sin and how Jesus died for them and believed then that He saved you. Do you think so now too, or are you trying to say that you do not, or are you still thinking about it? I highly esteem your experience of joy, trying to tell anyone who'd listen. Sounds like the woman at the well. What was that in your opinion? Could it have been your salvation (did you say this above, I can't tell?) Even if it was mixed with the confessing and walking the isle-bit -- which probably set you up for trouble (confusion) in your walk with Christ later on.

Where did I get this notion that I had to go back and endlessly dissect with what I know now, what I didn't know then? Hmm? Is that what God wants for me? I spent three or four years of my life obsessed. I'd spend another blog-post of my time to think deeply about it if I could learn to recognize the pattern of God's Spirit depositing in me, or the pattern of God's Spirit depositing in people in scripture, so to not reopen the scab because of mere teachers or even because of freshly-discovered bible passages.

I need to know more of what you think, though. You've been reading all these comments with Gary concerning "other ways of gaining assurance"?

Thanks for letting me think out loud through your testimony. I hope I was a good listener. You are so in love with Christ, it's plain as day :)

Sanctification said...

Actually I'd like a chance to re-say what I said above.

I'd spend another blog-post of my time to think deeply about it if I could learn to recognize the pattern of God's Spirit depositing in me, or the pattern of God's Spirit depositing in people in scripture, so to not reopen the scab because of mere teachers or even because of freshly-discovered bible passages.

Instead of saying how I am looking for the pattern of the Spirit being deposited, I'd like to categorize it with different boundaries. Those who are seeking God versus those who are not. Those who are seeking God who ask, seek, knock, and Jesus celebrates in reply. He receives worship or He praises someone's faith - and who knows exactly when they received the gift of eternal life. But they seem to be on their way, going the right direction at minimum, in Jesus' responses. This is true for both Gentiles and Jews.

Anonymous said...

....and not just your sin but He took away the sin of the WHOLE world . . . .behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Anonymous said...

Hi Michele,

I'll try to capture the essence of just what happened at age twelve and try to articulate it clearer. I found myself in despair, my life had come before my eyes and knowing that if I died right then I would be in an eternal hell. The very next moment came the remedy. I must have heard it over and over my Dad being a Pastor and having to be in Church so much, but it never registered before. At that moment it was like the light came on, and I found myself thinking 'I don't have to go to hell because Jesus paid for all my sin~!' WOW`!!!! I passed from death to life at that moment. Then the false teaching came to my mind ' you have to walk the isle.' I decided right then that I would walk the isle the next day because that's what I thought God wanted from me. I was terrified to walk the isle in front of all those people~! But it was something I thought I had to do, and when I did it I was so relieved and full of joy I had to share it with others. But see the light went on BEFORE I processed what I was going to do the next day. I had ALREADY seen Jesus as "the Christ" the One who had saved me~! At that moment I KNEW I would not go to hell if I died. That is what it means to believe in Jesus as the Christ, the One who has guaranteed your eternal destiny. Like Jesus said to Martha, ' I'm the resurrection and the life, If you die you will live and if you live and believe you will never die.' The apostle John said . . . . Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . . . . that person has received the gift of eternal life because that is what Jesus gives to the one who has believed in Him for their eternal well-being.

alvin:)

Anonymous said...

An overview of God's working in my life:)

Jumping ahead fourteen years . . . . Out of the Marines and married with our child . . . . got to get my family into church . . . . walked an isle . . . . then baptized . . . . thinking through doctrine like the Trinity . . . . can't control my thoughts . . . . trying to take every thought captive . . . . driving me crazy . . . . i cant do it . . . . .Christian life doesn't work . . . . gave it up . . . . . pastor asking me to give my testimony while he was gone along with some other men . . . . I'm not going to get up in front of allot of people and tell them something I don't think works . . . . back to my old lifestyle.

Jumping ahead around nine years . . . . .came to the end of myself . . . . . experienced God's presence and power to live the Christian life after Godly sorrow producing repentance over my sin . . . .Pastor came right out and asked me 'are you saved?' Yes, but might need to be re-baptized again . . . . . because of my experience with God I thought I had maybe just been saved . . . . . going on my experience and feelings . . . . . . faith crossroads . . . . . drove out in the woods and sat on a log in despair . . . . conclusion . . .I'm just going to trust you God . . . . . driving back into town, came to a sharp corner . . . . all of a suddenn being convicted by God concerning what I had done on that corner in my high school days . . . . I knew He had forgiven me for all my sins, so I'm wondering why is He convicting me over this? . . . God put this on my heart "Hosea" . . . . .got home looked it up and read it two or three times . . . . this is what came to me . . . God was telling me I had been unfaithful to Him since I was twelve years old but He had been faithful to me . . . . . went back and told my Pastor I didn't need to be re-baptized . . . . then went back to the Baptist church I had refused to give my testimony and got up before the whole Church telling them what had happened . . . . . crying out to God for light . . . . I know eternal life is a free gift but the bible makes it sound like it costs everything . . I will never know unless you show me . . . . . about two weeks later traveled ninety miles to Kalispell Montana to check out the second hand book stores . . . looking for Watchmen Knee books . . . .Zane Hodges book "Absolutely Free" . . . . but was full of John Calvin's name . . . . so I put it back on the shelf . . . . by the time I got back home I knew I needed to get that book . . . .so called and headed back . . . . it gave me the answer to my question . . . . . the difference between discipleship and the free gift of eternal life . . . . . I just realized just how free the gift of eternal life was . . . . I was amazed . . . . so then I start trying to make sense of my testimony and experiences . . . . I'm willing God to set them all aside . . . . . because why would I be so amazed that eternal life was free if I had believed that before? . . . . I need to sort things out . . . . it doesn't matter because I know I have believed in Jesus for His gift of life.

I by-passed one part in my life between these two jumps . . . . being baptized by my Calvinist brother and later committing my wife to a mental institute . . . . she was on nerve pills and suppose to be taken off them but became addicted . . . . and with being told she might not be one of the elect went into total despair . . . . she was never told she was loved growing up and didn't think anyone could love her especially God so it was easy for her to believe she wasn't the elect . . . . God showed her His love in the mental ward when a peace came upon her and then she knew He did love her . . . . healing took place . . . . I have a hate for Calvinism because it will destroy some people.

alvin

PS. I hope this might help someone showing the struggles of my own life.

Sanctification said...

Alvin thank you for sharing so intimately, I hope (believe) it helps others too. I can understand your hate for Calvinism.

Sanctification said...

Alvin how is God calling you forward, after all this?

Sanctification said...

You were saved years prior.... It sounds to me that Hodges' book helped you clear up how to walk with Christ by going back to the basics (the foundation), and sorting it out from there.

Is this what I've heard?

Anonymous said...

I needed to understand the difference between the gift of eternal life and discipleship. That was what I was asking God to do was show me, and that's where Hodges came in. Until then I was putting legalism on myself and my wife. She was telling me she could do nothing unless God did it in her. I knew what she was saying was true because of her mental health. She was not healthy, and once her mind had broke she was never the same. I was looking to my performance doing everything, youth group, Sunday school, care center ministry. She was getting the short end of the stick. And when I backed off doing so much I didn't realize until I did, that was where I was getting my assurance from, my performance. My wife was a blessing to me because of her helplessness. I knew if the Christian life worked it had to work for the helpless also who could not perform. My wife knew that eternal life had to be a gift or else the having to perform to be accepted would have drove her crazy. She could only rest in His unconditional love, and He was working that love through me, inspite of me. She needed to see God's love because she felt so unlovable.
Now I'm just living one day at a time, and sharing Christ with all who He brings into my life. I'm on the solid ground of grace, and know that He unconditionally loves me. It's only there is where my wife and I can blossom, resting in His love. That makes it a joy to share Him with others, because of the freedom which is in Christ:)

alvin:)

Sanctification said...

I just love how you and your wife share it for what it is.

It's really upsetting and tragic, but, the LORD brought you all the way through to the other side to a deeper trust. Even if it was at the hand of bad teaching, I wonder if God didn't need to purify you regardless. This is what I often think regarding my time of doubting God. There were actually two times I suffered majorly with it. Once when I was told I wasn't saved using Acts 2. The other was later on, more recently, when life was so ugly and wrong that I didn't know what God was doing, allowing it. Now I wanted to point out the stuff that was wrong outwardly that was affecting my walk with God - and place the blame there. But I had this very small voice inside me that entire time, telling me that this process wasn't a coincidence, it was about my own heart being tested and refined, and there were some real sin issues that I kind of crutched upon while I was in that time of doubt. God's eyes see all things. He knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

All evil things He can permit even for our refinement and His greater glory. If we will just keep pressing through it with even the smallest amount of faith.

It's so important to recall those moments of joy with God, that happened long ago. Those are the things that help clear out our thinking when even God's Word appears (by bad teaching) to have changed course. Thanks for your words and testimony, they are helping me challenge my thoughts about doubt and personal responsibility.

Sanctification said...

So it was the awareness of your sin and hell, and the cross which caused you to want to share your testimony in joy. That's when you think you were saved? That's good. I don't think the message of the cross is insufficient to save a lost person. Antonio said in his breakout session that preaching something like 1 Cor. 15 was not a fatal flaw, and I totally agree with his take on that too. I do agree with you, though as Gary has been teaching me about preaching eternal life to all those who believe in Him for it. So much misunderstanding of lordship has been attached and people are truly suffering such as in your testimony. These two aspects to the gospel are a great compliment to one another. My two cents for today; might change it tomorrow you never know. Do you have another thought?

Anonymous said...

Michele you said:
So it was the awareness of your sin and hell, and the cross which caused you to want to share your testimony in joy. That's when you think you were saved?

Alvin said:
Ok Michele lets test it against Scripture? Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:21-28; 4:3-5; Gal 2:16). One moment I was being convicted of my sin, and I was fearing judgment if I was to die right then. The next moment was like a light came on ' I don't have to go to hell because Jesus paid for all my sins,' I found myself believing something that had never regestered before though I had heard it over and over. But, my next thought was ' I have to walk the isle, ' thats works! But that thought came AFTER the light had come on. The question is, was I convinced before the light came on that to be saved I needed works (walking an isle) to seal the deal? If I did I wasn't believing in Jesus alone to save me, but faith plus my works. Which will save no one because you have to receive it like a child with childlike faith, there can be NO chance of boasting (Eph 2:8,9). How about later in life where God seemed to verify He had been faithful to me since the age of twelve but I had been unfaithful to Him? My experince? Is that enough to prove to myself I was saved? I would NEVER put my eternal destiny upon some experince no matter how good it was. Even though I believe I was saved then because it was illumination "Look and Live." I was convinced that what Jesus had done on the cross that if I died that moment I would be with Him BEFORE I walked an isle. So that tells me I had seen the Christ~! To believe in Jesus as the Christ is to believe He alone has saved you apart from any works you can do or will do. Why? Because Jesus only saves the ungodly (Romans 4:5).
The bottom line is not a date I can go back to, the bottom line do I know based on God's promise alone that I have been justified by faith alone in Christ? I know I have therefore based solely on God's promise I've passed from death into life never to come into a judgment that will determine my eternal destiny (John 5:24). It's all of grace! So it's SURE . . . . see Romans 4:16. Priase The Lord Oh my soul and all that is within me . . . .Praise His Holy Name~!

alvin:)

Diane said...

WOW~!!! What a beautiful testimony Alvin~!!! I couldn't live my life with joy if I didn't have HIS promise to fall back on in His Word. That alone gives be confidence and peace that I am His and He is mine~!!!
Praise God~!!!

Michele, you are always so kind to those who visit you at your blog and every place else. Love you dear friend.

Diane
:-)

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I just wanted to comment about what you said regarding the cross. Your words were....

"I don't think the message of the cross is insufficient to save a lost person."

I agree! The message of the cross is THEE best message we could tell anyone to convince them that Jesus gives eternal life. He can give it BECAUSE of the cross. Understanding that truth is what brought me to believe in Him. It's the greatest of all signs to bring someone to faith. YES.... share the cross always. Without the crosswork of Christ nobody could be saved.

The point that Zane and others were making about the cross was that people can believe in the crosswork of Christ and still be lost because they haven't believed in Him alone to save them. They can believe that He died for them but still believe they have to do their part. That's NOT believing in Him for eternal life.

But most people who come to faith today come to Him because of understanding the cross work of Christ. PRAISE GOD~!!!
:-)

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts here at your blog.

Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane,

I understand the matter a little better with the way you said it (which was more an explanation than mine), we are all in agreement. Alvin does have an amazing testimony I agree. I was thinking about how he answered what God was currently leading him toward in his life and this verse came to mind, Gal. 2:19-21

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

There is no finer way to live in this world than by being dead to the law and alive to God! Please feel free to share a concern or comment based on my words and perceptions - I know you're reading along (at least at this time) and that means you love me ;)

:D

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

Gal. 2:20 is one of my favorite verses in the whole Bible~!!!
Glad you shared that tonight.
Good passage for me to meditate on has I go to sleep tonight.

Love ya,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Alvin,

I'm glad you shared the full testimony for my benefit and what you think about it. I want to hear how you think through assurance based on various things as saved or unsaved. How do you deal with your doubt, then, now, as you find and test with scripture. So do you leave it at this, now; it doesn't matter when you were saved, because you believe the promise today (and did fairly early)? That's all you need to know or think about it anymore.... That helps. That is definitely a help considering what distress arose from your/my season of confusion. Closure can bring time for healing. Good stuff. I love your testimony! I'm not alone and that is good for a Christian to hear.

The bottom line is not a date I can go back to, the bottom line do I know based on God's promise alone that I have been justified by faith alone in Christ? I know I have therefore based solely on God's promise I've passed from death into life never to come into a judgment that will determine my eternal destiny (John 5:24). It's all of grace! So it's SURE . . . . see Romans 4:16. Priase The Lord Oh my soul and all that is within me . . . .Praise His Holy Name~!

I get that other comment of yours too, about God's promise being superior and authoritative above all/any experience. Theologically I'm there as well. I've been annoying Gary lately to tell me his reaction to passages on experiences with Jesus and faith and worship resulting, from the scriptures, lately. I like to look at those passages not to take the place of "light" (the spoken Word of promise of life in Christ), as Gary has shown me, but because I think they are a compliment to light. These verses depicting experiences in/with Christ, such as joy or a satisfaction in the soul, are the revelation of God, an understanding for a doctrine of some sort declaring God's encouragement and desire, and even the blessing or future inheritance that comes from obeying His command really; a command for all people to seek Him either saved or unsaved. Why in the world did the four gospel writers include detailed account after account of people and their feelings and transformations if it didn't matter since our faith in doctrinal truths always have the position of trumping what we feel? I don't see tension as the norm in between the two in scripture. I see them complimenting each other as the norm. Amongst some kinds of Christians I see fear in allowing onesself to accept experiences as one source of assurance and/or the leading of the Holy Spirit day to day. Other Christians accept experiences and feelings as one step included with the other more important step of knowing the truth, on the runway of confidence in His moment by moment leading and pleasure with us.

Where are you on the spectrum of allowing/disallowing experiences and feelings arising from your time in scripture to partially inform your walk in Christ?

It is a benefit to hear how you've faced this. There are so many good things I've learned to not do to myself and others in the short time I've been exposed to FGT. Believe me. :)

Any more thoughts?

Sanctification said...

Alvin,

I know you have not yet replied if you remember on where you fall on the spectrum question and I'd like to hear that reply, but if I may, ever so tenderly point out some things I note? They do regard your testimony and I hope you don't feel it as I'm intruding in like a cult monger on your personal testimony, reviving what a score of others have done over and again (I too want people to be care-full when they approach me after what I've been through). I don't think my observation will be terribly shocking when you read it, I think you will probably say it makes sense, but please let me know if I make steps which remind you of any former evil.

I think I see in some matters a certain reliance on feelings and/or experience from time to time to partially inform your direction of pursuit in Christ. You were driving, you came to a sharp corner, you felt convicted and believe the LORD laid the book of Hosea on your heart. I don't know what that means fully but I can tell it means something to you, that event.

You went back to an old lifestyle confused that the gift cost everything and yet was free, prayed for light. You did those things intuitively knowing deep down that something wasn't satisfying, wasn't right. Your life didn't exhibit and feel what it was supposed. Testimony before church was hard work! You read theology books because you knew deep down that something more was to be experienced and felt. Went back to the bookstore a second time to obtain Absolutely Free.

Your wife heard that she was possibly not one of the elect and this sent her in to the deepest of despairs. You could have accepted that theology about election based on scripture, because there it was. But it wasn't enough because you knew that the experience emanating out from the doctrine didn't match. She went with her more gut understanding of God that He loved unconditionally till it could be proved with the rest of the scriptures. She knew it and it led the way. I am impressed because it sounds like she learned to stand totally weakened, but still somewhere inside, firm, that the other "truths" must not be trustworthy because of what came out of them - despair.

Now you and Diane both have such a deep joy and relief and want everyone to taste what you taste. Because the theology is right. ;)

I think this is scriptural. Deut. 28. God foretells exactly the kinds of curses will come to those who are disobedient (disobedience not applicable to you, just looking for more evidence of this matter), and blessings for the obedient. In fact it was because the faithful were given blessings that they became hard hearted often and struggled to repent. Why not have obedience and theology tied in to the experience and feelings of men. God vowed to do it that way.

The kingdom of God is now and also not yet. One day He will destroy all things that are painful. The book of Isaiah explains this reality so we will prepare in hope for it to actually come. We get to have a foretaste of it now in this life as believers. Healings. Reconciliations. Being taught directly from God in the temple (us). Cleansed consciences. Tears wiped from our eyes. Death destroyed. Temptation gone. World peace even.

Some of us experience some of these things in our spirits in this age - because the Kingdom of God is in us.

God told us about how Satan will be tormented day and night forever. And how for some there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. He fore-tells us now, about some experiences/feelings later, that accompany our choice to forsake believing in Him and the light of His life. He gives rewards and punishments and we ought to be able to discern if we have a counterfeit gospel by the way things begin to move in our soul.

Please tell me if I've been unkind or said anything which gives you an impression of harm, I do not intend to harm you. :)

Sanctification said...

I love you too Diane, good night. :) If you can leave a comment tomorrow, please do. I'll be in and out but would like to hear your thoughts.

Anonymous said...

Michele

I was crying out to God early in my life for light. My Mom dead at the foot of my bed from gas afixiation which my Dad had put the gas stove in the house. Later a Dad that was in and out of mental institutes. Later marrying a woman just for my brother and myself to take care of us. Rages of jealousy where she tried killing me more than once. I was crying out to God ~! Why? Why?

A Scripture comes to mind, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) I'm free Michele, I understand God's heart . . . . see Jeremiah 9:24 understand), and is saying "Here I am, here I am (Isaiah 65:1-5). We respond by coming to the light until the day dawn and the Mourning star rises in our hearts (2 Peter 1:19; 2 Cor 4:3-6; 2 Thess 2:10b).

alvin:)

Sanctification said...

I'm thankful this world isn't totally evil. You sure seem to have seen a lot of it. I wish I knew what to say in the face of suffering. My friend who experiences chronic pain recommended to me, "Don't say, 'I'm sorry,' that doesn't help; say instead, 'This sucks.'"

You remind me, Jesus is precious. This verse came to me reading what you shared, Matt 13:44

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."

:)

Anonymous said...

Notice at the top of God's list in Jeremiah 9:23-24 of understanding and knowing Him is lovingkindness.

We bought two kittens (sisters) about a year ago, come to find out they had gerardia so it took four treatments to finally get them healthy. You could tell the one little kitten who we named Tooty had been abused. She wouldn't trust you, and would move when ever you got close fearing you would step on her or hit her. The other little kitten we called Gabby was as trusting as can be, she would just lay there on her back and let you step over her. We realized that Tootie needed extra love to heal from what had happened to her. Well she has just about completely healed from her fear. She just needed some unconditional love, and now she is flourishing. That's what my wife needed, she believed she was unlovable. God as our Father doesn't want us to wonder if we are His, He wants us to rest in His unconditional love, and it's only there can we truly grow healthy. So were doing things for the right reason. Until we have believed Him in a childlike verse like John 3:16 were not able to rest but are continually trying to gain His approval. My wife tried doing that with her parents but she could never get it. No matter how hard she tried she wasn't told she was loved. So naturally she felt she was unlovable. God was working through me to show her His unconditional love, she knows He loves her now, and is not like her earthly father who could not say it or show it.
God wants us to believe Him when He says the one who believes in Him will never perish but has everlasting life. He proved His unconditional love on the cross by paying for not just those who will believe, but for all the sins of the world even of those who will not believe. That is what unconditional love does, it's not conditioned on what you do or don't do. God's gift of everlasting life is unconditional which you simply receive by believing Him in His promise. It's not conditioned on what you will do or not do but can be taken freely, that's what a gift is. That's where we start like a child with joy over His gift, and then are compeled by that unconditional love to live for Him:)

alvin:)

Sanctification said...

What a great illustration, Gabby "holds fast" under trial as a testimony of the confidence in the love she's already received. That has a lot to do with what I was trying to say above. The true gospel is establishing and healing in how it makes us operate. You and your wife are just the best selling point I could ever find for a Calvinist. Having not only the light of the gospel but personal testimony showing off God's best. You know grace, you tell others, and you feel the difference. No one can ignore personal transformation. Tim wrote this in a post called River Evangediscipleship

Jesus did not come and die to populate heaven with smoke-stinking paupers. Some will be there, and glory to God for His mercy — but that is not the point. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, really save. You can experience hell on earth, dead while you live, a rotting tatterdemalion puppet jerking and twitching through the decades, the devil yanking the strings all the way — is that salvation? Is that what Jesus came to offer you? No. Jesus is not selling insurance, fire or otherwise. He came that you may have life, and that you may have it more abundantly.

I just like that. It's starkly graphic which I occasionally appreciate.

Sanctification said...

Jeremiah 9:23-24

This is what the LORD says:
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom
or the strong man boast of his strength
or the rich man boast of his riches,

but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD.


Nice...

Diane said...

I, too, loved Alvin's illustration of the 2 kittens.
Thanks Alvin for sharing that, and thanks Michele for you blog where he could share it.

You are both such a blessing~!!!

Diane
:-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Michele,

Zane saw the reality out there and the need to stress the gift of eternal life because there are so many Lordship disciples of Christ who do not have the gift of eternal life because they are yet to believe Jesus childlike promise. Now that's what's sad~! Zane said it well when he said: But eternal life is an unearned experience because, at its core, eternal life is the gift of God that is given in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is to say, by virtue of our being in Christ (see Rom 6:3,4) we possess this gift. When we produce holiness, therefore, we are living out the gift that God gave us when we were justified by faith.

This will be my last post. I pray God's blessings upon you and your family. Thank you for letting me post.

alvin:)

Sanctification said...

Thanks Alvin for sharing so much and so intimate. I hope along with you if anyone is reading your testimony being Calvinist, or not even knowing what Calvinism is, but knowing deep down that believing the gospel doesn't feel like eternal life, they might identify with your experience and learn what is missing and be set free. The LORD is so good and His goodness shines like a Savior out of your struggles.

I want to inform you that I still have "doubt" on my mind and also the circumstances surrounding receiving the gift. I'd like it if you felt welcome to comment again. God bless you. We are part of the same family :D

Diane said...

Hi Michele,

I have enjoyed reading the latest comments here between you and Alvin. One question came to my mind as I read your last comment to Alvin. Hope it's OK if I ask.

Why do you still have doubt?
Thanks.

Love ya,
Diane
:-)

Sanctification said...

Hi Diane :)

Well i have doubt, the topic in scripture, on my mind, but I also have doubt, meaning I have some personally. I think I wrestle with it a lot less now than I did when the trials I am coming out of now were headed steeply downward, three or four or five years ago.

After someone receives the gift of eternal life, they come alive in the conviction that "all is well, now that I know my eternal destiny." I'd agree in that sense. God allows us to kind of hang out in that juxtaposition of our life in Him for a few years. And then, all of a sudden, a steep trial comes and the faith and bond is tested. The question of old comes back - where am I, again? Am I in Christ, because it doesn't feel like that today?

This is too hard.

This is so wrong.

I am failing so badly.

etc.

We reach a new crossroads; continue to press into God to see what new life He can provide, or make-do with the life we can gain on our own. This process continues over and over until we finally realize that our nature in Adam is truly so broken, it only makes sense to ask God for every single thing we have, including rising every day to talk to Him before reality invades our soul. This kind of faith is so confident that we are secure in Him in every way and the world really knows He lives and we are dead.

(Now if I could do what I know is best, that'd be great.)

Do you agree or can you add a thought (or subtract one of mine)?

Love, Michele

Diane said...

Michele... Yes, trials in life truly test our faith. But trials shouldn't make us doubt our salvation. I realize that it does cause many believers to doubt, but the doubt comes only because we've taken our eye's off the promise of God in His Word to give us eternal life just by believing in Him for it. We've stopped believing the testimony of God such as John 3:16.

I had a friend a few years ago who challenged me on this. He told me that when he got into sin it made him doubt his salvation. It wasn't until he gave up that sin that he found assurance again.
(BTW.... I know that trials don't have to be sin. Any trial can cause one to have doubts about his salvation.)*
Anyway, I told my friend that he wasn't doubting his salvation because of his sin but because he stopped believing the promise of God in His Word. The moment he believed God's promise again is the moment he got his assurance back. Getting our eyes off the promise and on our circumstances will always bring doubt.

I, too, am weak in my faith as I go through trials. I get scared, worried, angry, sad, etc., etc. when I concentrate on what I'm going through. It's like....... "Where are you God? I need you now to help me." And then God is silent. Do I doubt my salvation? NO~!!! NEVER~!!! But I find myself doubting sometimes that He cares enough to answer my prayer or bring good out of my circumstances. But these trials are conforming me to the image of His Son if I will trust Him and grow. I can't grow when everything goes well. He's there for me in my trials, and I need Him~!!! I'm learning that His grace IS sufficient. I don't know how people do it without the Lord? But growing stronger and stronger as a believer is different than doubting that He has truly saved us. If and when doubt does occur, just go back to His promise and believe~!!! Your doubt about being saved will go away and that's the only way to live~!!!

This is just a quick response to your question. It's probably not very clear, but I wanted to comment before I went to bed. It's been a joy to have fellowship with you around the Person of Jesus Christ. He alone makes life worth living~!!!

Your friend and sister in Christ,
Diane
:-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Michele, thanks for the invite:)

What Diane is saying is right on the money:) I remember when I was really struggling with my faith. I remember a little tract that had a picture of a train. The train consisted of the engine then a car and finally the caboose. The engine stood for the facts, and the car was faith, and the caboose was feelings. The idea was to put your faith in the facts and let your feelings come along for the ride. If your feelings started wanting to get in front you just needed to direct your focus on the facts by faith. Those ones who would tell you it's a healthy tension to doubt your salvation don't know what they are talking about. That would be like doubting that your earthly father maybe isn't your father. God wants you to know, and that is the believers strength the joy of your salvation. Jesus wants you to rejoice because your name is written in heaven. If the testimony of man is great the testimony of God is greater and the testimony is that He has given us eternal life so we can know we are His child. None of us always acts like His child, but what child does always act perfect. God is perfect an that is the standard Jesus Christ Himself. God loves His children with the same love He loves His Son. When He sees us He sees us in Christ perfected, which we will finally be when we see Him face to face. When we focus our faith on these facts we put our self in a healthy environment to grow healthy and strong in our faith, resting in His unconditional love. And that is the best place to be:) Another word for this would be abiding, and when we do we grow strong , and the joy spills over into others lives. It makes us want to share Christ with others. When we understand that the Christian life is a process that will be completed only when we see Him face to face the train can stay on the track with our feelings bringing up the rear....ha!ha! I must say one thing about the blood it's always there so we can come boldly into the throne room of grace. The believer by faith in Christ's shed blood knows their sin has all been paid for, and when we go in by faith we are agreeing with God that we are sinners who need daily foot washing. Jesus said your clean because of the word, but you need your feet washed to have fellowship with Me.

alvin:)

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