...and you're the kind of person who wants to engage in some dialogue about the utmost importance of knowing who Jesus is, here's a good set-up:
YOU SAY: I hear you sharing a message about the end of the world or about how important morality or the Word of God is. But I already believe in those things, too.
THEY SAY: Then perhaps we could ask you to consider if you believe that God has an organization here on earth which is doing the work of building the Kingdom?
YOU SAY: Yes, I worship Jesus and anyone else who does so in Spirit and truth belongs to the church.
THEY SAY: Well -- the guidelines for what we believe should come from the bible. Many kinds of churches follow man's traditions. An example of this would be the Trinity... do you believe in this teaching?
YOU SAY: According to some groups, the teaching of the Trinity is controversial. It's relatively a side issue, considering what differences we might have in our beliefs about who Jesus is. Would you mind reading a passage in 1 Corinthians that talks about Jesus, with me?
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.1 cor 15:12-19
YOU SAY: Do you see that without the correct idea of resurrection, we are all left in our sins... according to that teaching, that witness. So what we think about Jesus can mess up the formula of redemption.
THEY SAY: [A long diatribe on their beliefs that Jesus was not God, however "a god". They take you to scriptures like Proverbs 8. They take you to Colossians 1 and try and prove that he was only helping Jehovah in making creation. When they are done....]
YOU SAY: I believe that, just like the Father, Jesus is fully YHWH God. Did you know that the deity of Jesus Christ is written right into the Ten Commandments?
THEY SAY: That's interesting, I've never heard that before.
YOU SAY: Yes, it is, and while we flip there, this is just the icing on the cake to show you how I see that Jesus is written all over the bible as being YHWH God, as well as being described so, explicitly, in my bible's translation. Let me ask you: Does Jesus get Jehovah's glory? Additionally, is Jesus, if served (latreuo) and worshiped (proskyneo), therefore an idol?
Can I revere Jesus as a divine Lord? Can I call Him not only a god, but my god?
If inappropriately given too much proskyneo, does He become...
--an idol?
--an image?
--a false god?
--Ex 23:24 “Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices.”
--Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods (466) before me.”
gods (#466) - elohiym - the most common Hebrew word translated “God “ in the OT. When in plural form, can be translated as divine rulers or judges, angels, gods, or men who represent God.
before me - panah - to turn, presence, in front of, front.
--Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God.”
idol - pasal - to carve, cut; idol, whether carved, cut, cast, or made of wood.
bow down - hawah - to prostrate oneself, bow down, crouch; to do obiesance, worship. Denotes act of respect before one’s superior in position, and essentially signifies submission. This term is especially used in the sense of worshiping a diety. It signifies to honor God w/ prayers even without prostrating the body. Those who use this mode of salutation, however, fell upon their knees and touched the ground with their foreheads. The equivaent Greek word proskyneo, to worship.
worship - Abad - to serve, minister, worship; to do work, do. Denotes service or work which may be directed toward things, or flax or toward people. In a specialized sense, Abad means to serve YHWH as a Levite. The Septuagint uses Latreuo, to serve, for the exclusive service provided by the priests.
--Col 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God...”
image - eikon - to be like, resemble, representation, likeness, figure, copy, reflection, appearance, manifestation, embodiment. It implies what is derived from an archtype, which is cast as a direct expression of something. Used of idols (rom 1:23) art (mt 22:20) OT law (heb 10:1) Christ (2 cor 4:4,6). In the book of Revelation, eikon of the beast symbolizes the idolatrous devotion shown by his followers.
--Ex 20:23 “Do not make any gods (466) to be alongside me.”
alongside - et - with, to, upon, beside, among, against.
--John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.”
--Ex 23:13 “Do not invoke the names of other gods (466); do not let them be heard on your lips.”
invoke - zakar - to remember, recollect, reflect upon, to mention, declare, proclaim, to commemorate.
--Col 1:28 “We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.” (Col 4:3 says that ‘we’ “proclaim the mystery of Christ.”)
It's just a starting point. I have a lot more stuff I've found which uses the Old Testament passages to illuminate who Jesus is. The goal with the JWs is to use the bible to show them who Jesus is, with respect of course.
Then you have to go back to that famous, great question that Josh McDowell asks in his books: If Jesus is not God, then the only alternative is that He must be a lunatic.
4 comments:
This afternoon the two old ladies I've been meeting with for the last three or so years, came. They immediately walked right into my segue to the boundaries given in 1 cor 15. They indeed had never heard the idea that the deity of Jesus Christ was written right into the Ten Commandments.
"Huh; that's funny," she said. Meaning not so much that it's funny, but clever.
"You shall have no other gods alongside of me." "For I, your God, am a jealous God." "But God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made Him known."
They answered this saying yes JC is alongside Jehovah; He should not be included when Jehovah is explaining his jealousy. He is God's Son. They are intimate and part of a family.
I get it, I said. JC is so assumed into God's camp that we shouldn't really be alarmed that He is alongside Jehovah.
Tell me, then, why is it again that we should not be worshiping Jesus too? Where is Jehovah making pains to make sure you and I are clearly commanded to not worship Jesus?
Wow, they were frustrated. They took me to vs 27-28 of 1 cor 15, where it says that although all things are under the authority of JC, JC turns all things over to the Father in the end so that all things might be under God.
That makes it pretty clear, she said, that Jesus is subjected to God.
That Jesus makes himself subjected to God, I answered, is clear. He subjects Himself as the "suffering servant." He took on flesh and lowered himself. So the next question is to ask whether that service and subjection during that time brings limitation to what He otherwise has been and always was. And to that I would use Phil 2 to say that there was something about His nature that He surrendered for a time. The question is, what is that nature?
She then replied that JC is seen as a Creator but that the creation was made by Jehovah and for Jehovah.
I said, actually, that passage in colossians is claiming that all things are made and sustained by Jesus, not Jehovah.
Then she said "He helped Jehovah create, but nothing would have been created without Jehovah's direction and involvement as the planner of it all."
I said, this is just a small example of how Jesus identifies Himself as YHWH when He speaks, and how the writers of the NT do the same while writing about Him. Just one of many, many examples is found in Hebrews 1:10-12, which is a direct quote of Psalm 102. Directed and ascribed to YHWH once, and Jesus in the New.
The two ladies went along listening and then said, "This is what a lot of people struggle with understanding. That Jesus could be creator along with Jehovah, does not mean that He is God too."
"I think you misunderstood me, perhaps," I said. "I'm not even looking here at the content of this passage which is talking about creation. I'm talking about how this passage is descriptive and addressed to YHWH in the Old Testament, and then verbatim ascribed to Jesus in replacement, in the New Testament. Why?"
"See... This is why there are so many people out there who believe in the false teaching of the Trinity. They misunderstand scripture itself."
"Yes! At least you can see now where I am coming from when I say I am inclined with reason to think like this."
"We're going to get some answers for you and come back next time," they said.
In conclusion, this is not an argument or futile, in my thinking. Many kinds of conversations and a plentiful, ongoing amount of them might be considered futile, I would agree. But just the thought that there is no way to manage the deity of Jesus Christ, is an explosive thing to a JW. They will wrestle with it for years to come. If these are indeed some kinds of evangelical apologetics that they have never heard, it'll be another generation before their big thinkers get around to giving a "good answer in reply." In the meantime, this message can save perhaps a few, from the fate of not knowing and experiencing Jesus as the LORD of all.
Greetings
I am no JW!!
Therefore,
on the subject of the trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus
Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you to reconsider "The Trinity"
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
The trinity is less relevant an issue compared to the deity of Jesus Christ. In my study of the scriptures, I see that Jesus claims himself as YHWH. In fact I would have thought there was no other God if it weren't for the fact that Jesus teaches so often and prays and submits Himself to a God, the Father.
Thanks for your comments and thoughts... Michele
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