Does assurance only come through knowing about "eternal life?" Or, are there other verses and other exchangeable terms giving assurance of salvation in the Bible? If there are, is there a need to only consider the eternal life verses? Can we use the other ones instead?
I had someone tell me that they did not think I was saved, when I was much younger in the LORD. My response was that I knew I was a believer, but, how did I have evidence of it? I never looked to my works for assurance because I knew better. The people who told me that I had not been saved, made the receiving of the Holy Spirit as the hinge-point of my justification with God. Consequently what I searched for in me was evidence that I was Spiritually alive, and not dead. This was before I looked to the word of God for the answer. I noticed my own delight in the Word of God, its Spiritual revelation toward me, and the change of heart that took place as a result of my listening to it. And, I noticed that I had known the presence of God substantially enough that it propelled me to become a disciple because of His demonstration to me, of His Presence.
I could offer those things to someone as my answer of why I knew I was saved. For some it would be enough. But for anyone else crafty with the Word, I had nothing. So I went home and started reading the Bible.
Here was the verse that gave me assurance:
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:13 is this verse. It was good. I still point to one verse, today, as my assurance. But one verse wasn't really enough... to assure me. Isn't assurance many times just this way? Impossible to be satisfied until after a good deal of reading, knowing, and believing and trusting on the word of God in general. So I studied and found that salvation had many exchangeable terms, such as "eternal life" "everlasting life" "living water" "salvation" "the granting and indwelling of the Holy Spirit," "justification," "Abraham's heirs" "(imputation-verses)" "baptism into Christ" "faith-righteousness"....
All these are talking about the same thing. And I knew that. I'm sure that Lordship Salvation people understand that all these things are exchangeably referencing the same thing, meaning salvation. But other people in our lives, don't know this. Remember the church down the road from my house? They are Oneness Pentecostals, who have also changed the gospel to include works:
May I ask you now, “Have you received the holy Ghost since you believed?” Our Lord declared, “He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said ‘Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’ (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe in him should receive)” (Jn.7:38-39). The age in which we live is especially the dispensation of the holy Ghost, for just as certainly as Jesus made his advent into the world at Bethlehem, even so, the holy Ghost made its advent into the world at Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost. Those who rejected the Savior when he was sent into the world lost their souls. Those who reject the holy Spirit which he sent as his Vicar will lose theirs.
- Taken from a UPC-equivalent website displaying a tract for Christians who have been "spiritually conceived" but not "born again;" those Christians who have received the Word of God in their hearts but still stand eternally condemned by God.
I ask these O.P. people what they think of my standing with God, as I am. I might possibly convince some by the Gospel of John to agree with me that I might possibly have "eternal life" because I believed in Jesus. But they would still tell me that I will suffer condemnation and have not yet received the Holy Spirit. So you see just studying eternal life is good, but there is more work to be done regarding assurance, more than one way to express and prove it for others' sake.
In fact I remember very distinctly studying for awhile on "eternal life" verses. I did notice that "living water" and "eternal life" were good. They helped build my case, at least in the sense of proving righteousness by faith, alone. But in another way this topic made assurance of salvation much more difficult to build the proof of having received the Holy Spirit (another words, proof of being saved of everything I need for life and righteousness in this life and the next). I'm not saying it can't be done, of course it can be and we have a number of verses which connect the two together. BUT - being someone interested in a rock-solid grasp, being someone interested in assurance, what I was seeking was proof on an even more relevant matter. And that matter is whether or not I have been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. For no one could harm me in the next life concerning eternity if I had been marked in him worthy of redemption by having received His own self - the Holy Spirit - even right now as I live everyday.
But in addition, if I can prove I have received the Holy Spirit I could also open the door to proving my easy-positioning to sanctificational-righteousness. No man, including my own self in a season filled with doubts, could harm my general acceptance by God if the Holy Spirit had indeed been deposited to me on faith in Jesus, alone.
In conclusion, my assurance came through one verse on the depositing of the Holy Spirit, and then it came through studying how the Holy Spirit is dispensed to men, and then it lastly came through studying the works-less condition of faith in which salvation takes place. Eternal life never came up on my radar as the hinge-point for assurance, for me personally.
I'd venture to guess that assurance of salvation by faith apart from works is the Free Grace preoccupation. I wonder if FG people might be those distinguished by this attempt to free the gospel of all which harms the imputation of righteousness that comes by faith alone in Christ alone. I assume that everyone who has seen sects exchange the truth into some demand of works, and has grown disgusted of it, finds true brothers and sisters here because they share the same passionate mission. I guess this is the case? I may be mistaken on that. I never was conscious of Lordship Salvation specifically. I saw a lot of other odd doctrinal arrangements even by those who claim to understand the infallibility of scripture. So I might not fall into a core camp of those FG people recoiling from LS. But that's okay.
36 comments:
Hey there Buckwheat! I thought you had done gone and disappeared. Thanks for inviting me over. Did you get my FB message a few days ago?
Give me a little time to read this post real close ok? I don't want to misunderstand and say something stupid alright?
I be hollerin back atcha.
Bad
Buckwheat...yeah, that fits!
My take on your post comes from the background fade behind the header on Rose's:
say that again, real slow...(...or maybe in different words?)
BTW, did you notice Gary M. just asked both BlueCollar and Bobby G. for their views on how to counsel someone who lacks assurance?? Watch out, y'all...looks like some grace might break out!
Hi Bucktooth
I be taken it ta work and me and ole' Ruthy be jew'n on it some . . .then we be give'n a howler like ole' Bad . . . . .heeheee getty-up Ruthy we be on double-time an a half today . . . .we can buy a new saddle..heeeheeeee
reasenWell I be. When I be comin upon Bucktooth's turf, I thought I smelt sumpin in da air. Sho nuf it be Ugly just left. At least dat Humperdink on rollers be gone or i must be a turnin round.
Bucktooth:F Yer not gonna believe what I jest did. Dis pilgrim spent a hour writin you a letter to put here, but i went over 4,096 letters and it be rejected. Well, I'z jest gonna have ta start over but ma fangers be stiff . I jest might send it by privite mell cause I caint say it in no less dan 4,096. I jest caint articulate in less dan no 4096...not when i be theoligizen i caint. you ain't mad is ya?
do dat be ok by you?
Bad gonna rest his fangers a bit.
An Humperdink say he gonna be given a howler...yah...he be a howler on rollers an a chasin possum.
Bucktooth said:
Does assurance only come through knowing about "eternal life?" Or, are there other verses and other exchangeable terms giving assurance of salvation in the Bible? If there are, is there a need to only consider the eternal life verses? Can we use the other ones instead?The only way any of us get to heaven is by believeing in Jesus as "the Christ" the One who has guaranteed our eternal destiny. The Apostle John put it this way: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God 1 John 5:1a. For John to believe that Jesus is the Christ is saving truth. The ONLY book in the Bible that is written to the UNBELIEVER so that they might have life is the Gospel of John: And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His diciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31 John in his Gospel tells us what it means to believe in Jesus as the Christ in Jesus talk with Martha when He states some facts about the one who believes that He guarantees their eternal destiny and then ask's her if she believes those facts. She answeres according to John's purpose statement when she states: "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world. John 11:25-27 For John this is saving truth and what he wants the unbeleliever to believe. Over and over again Jesus is offering the gift of everlasting life to the unbeliever in the Gospel of John.
Why in the world would you not want to use the ONLY book that is written to the unbeliever and instead use books that are written to people that already know what it means to believe in Jesus as the Christ?
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ. Eph 1:1b
The ones who challenged you concerning the Holy Spirit could have been easily proved false by showing they contradicted the childlike Scriptures in the Gospel of John. John 5:24 in paticular guarantees the one who believes will never come into a judgment to determine their eternal destiny and the ONLY condition is to believe. Over 90 some times the only condition in the Gospel of John is to simply believe.
For you to want to use other scriptures in books that are written to believers makes absolutely no sense to me. I think your going by your own experience and still do not understand the importance of John's Gospel for the unbeliever that he may have life in Jesus name.
Ugly was here and done went ta beddy bye~~~~~~~~~~~~
P/s Those terms you gave are NOT all the same. Salvation is a broad term and can have more then ONE condition just look at Mark 16:16 or Romans 10:9 just to name a couple.
Hi Michele,
I agree with what Alvin is saying here. The only way you are going to get real clarity on this issue is with the Gospel of John because that is the specific purpose for why God gave us this book. It doesn't contradict anything in the rest of the NT, but the rest of the NT was written to give teaching to people who had already understood and believed the truth that John emphasizes in his Gospel. I struggled for many years with these issues in a way that is similar to what I sense is happening with you. It was only the Gospel of John that finally nailed it down for me. The rest of the NT scriptures make so much more sense now that I see the simple and foundational truth of John's Gospel.
I hope you and your grandmother are doing well Michele.
I'm not trying to imply that you are an unbeliever by my comments, just that even for a believer who is confused or seeking clarity on these fundamental issues, the Gospel of John is the place to go.
Hey Bad!
Yeah, I got your facebook message, I haven't been over there, it was comforting and you know I thought about your example many times, I'm so glad God has given you a sweet soul through all your trials. He is good isn't He? You know... you probably don't want to hear this now but I always copy my own comments before I submit.... :( Looking forward to whatever comes back from the crypt. Post away!
:D Michele
Hi Jim, I'm so terribly embarrassed! Ahh. I think I need a class on how to speak "doctrinese."
Watch out, y'all...looks like some grace might break out! I haven't been over there yet, but woo! I've always been a big fan of grace, for sure, I named a daughter it.
:F
I was beginning to think you had disappeared again. Thanks for what you said,
Let me mention one more thing that might be helpful to you. I know you are familiar with Jn. 11:25-27. Well, we know that Martha was already a believer when Jesus spoke those words to her. She was already born again but was confused. Jesus was just trying to reassure her by clarifying for her something she had already believed in the past. So that is a great passage to study and meditate
on even for born again believers. I hope this helps.
From now on I know better than to go over 4096! :)
You are a blessing to all of us.
Michele,
God forbid that you should learn "doctrinese." That's not at all what I intended to imply. In fact, I'm sure you make complete sense to people who don't live out of their heads as much as I do.
I reread your post and felt like I grasped most of it until the UPC quote. Then I started reading between the lines, and I think I got what your getting at.
In reply, I would say that I think the Holy Spirit has everything to do with true assurance. Sometimes we can put it in words, sometimes we can't (Rom 8:14ff); and every once in awhile (especially whenever or wherever the Word is not taught well), He does something outwardly supernatural to secure our assurance. But it's all of His grace in response to our faith.
Hi Gary,
I'm writing a response to Alvin too right now, mine is getting long as well! I am definitely disappearing and reappearing lately. I've been doing what amounts to every other night over with my grandma, and the more time I spend with her the more I adore her. I can't help but love her. I'm glad to have some time to talk with you and others after interacting so much with unbelievers, because we are family in Him. :D
Hi Ugly,
Hi Alvin,
Sorry this is long. This is the first time I hit the dreaded 4,096 mark! I'll break it up.
You both can answer this :D Your self is welcome here anytime ya like, though just a bit of advice, I wouldn't boast to your friends on your fine schedule of bathing annually okay? ;)
You said "The only way any of us get to heaven is by believeing in Jesus as "the Christ" the One who has guaranteed our eternal destiny."
However it was that any one came to believe, it is true that not everyone is concerned about assurance. It is possible that some people are plagued by it for years, and possible that some people don't ever think about it for years after being saved. What starts someone's struggle to obtain assurance might be a variety of issues in scripture. For me, it was baptism in water. None of you share that specific struggle for assurance I had, I would guess. Because your battle lied most often with LS.
For instance, as you were saying, "The ones who challenged you concerning the Holy Spirit could have been easily proved false by showing they contradicted the childlike Scriptures in the Gospel of John. John 5:24 in paticular guarantees the one who believes will never come into a judgment to determine their eternal destiny and the ONLY condition is to believe. Over 90 some times the only condition in the Gospel of John is to simply believe."
I agree. I would certainly enjoy camping in John for these kinds of believers but I suspect they'll do as so many churches we know, do. They'll turn to the book of Acts. I realize this is already a sensitive issue. They will bring up dispensationalism even if they don't know what the word means.
(The rest Alvin in the next, thanks)
Hi again,
(This is the rest...) :)
Think about how many church sects there are out there which have put the book of Acts as most instructive on salvation. All the Church of Christ derivatives, all the Pentecostal derivatives -- that's a lot of believers! And all of them believe in the infallibility of scripture, it's just that they are hardened or distracted from studying out the rest of their bibles.
I think you would agree that all the churches which look to Acts for their baptism or tongues distinctives, probably regard the book disproportionally too highly. In fact you suggest that they look closer at John's Gospel in order to have assurance (as well as be freed from their works-based gospel!!). This is the sort of thing that happens when someone puts more relevance on some truths, or some texts, than others. They make a compromise not only on the truth, but on how they perceive the imputed righteousness of other believers. I see it again and again with endless variety. I think I proved its beginning most recently with the occasional separationist brothers who take their services too far.
Now if I go in there, and I try and prove assurance to the pentecostal how God has given me eternal life, they'll possibly give me a blank stare. "Why is she talking about eternal life? I want to talk about the Holy Spirit given to indwell, with the outward sign of the gift of tongues, accomplished through water baptism." I have two options to show them my assurance in Christ: work really hard to draw them into trusting the Gospel of John, or, prove within their own emphasis on Acts and many other texts from the bible, that the Holy Spirit is not given in baptism, He is given by faith in Christ, a faith apart from works.
For assurance I wonder if there are several bullseyes, not one. This GoJ bullseye is perfect for LS, that's what Hodges did was write LS apologetics, and in a general use the GoJ bullseye is great for the rest of broad Christianity, to remember how simple eternal life is granted. That's great. However the Hodges' writings are LS-culture specific. It can be used for pentecostals, and so forth, for sure, with limited success. Other non-LS groups might need more support from the Word.
If I can prove the issue they really are looking for, regarding the Holy Spirit, eternal life falls right into place with that of course. But if I do the reverse it may be more complicated.
This is all the more reason why I think, "in this dispensation," it is better to prove not just eternal life, but prove where the Holy Spirit has been given to us, to the world. Because churches, really and honestly, are fighting about where the Holy Spirit is and where He is not. Doctrinally. If they aren't disagreeing about it in regard to justification, they are most certainly fighting about it in sanctification, just like I believe many here in FG are doing at the present. Christians dismiss other Christians because they think they've dismissed from scripture the presence of the Holy Spirit, but the whole counsel of the Word of God proves how very premature that dismissal is.
Let me know if this seems reasonable?
Hi Michele,
Your last 2 comments were great. Now I better understand what you were driving at in your post and why Eph. 1:13 was so significant for you. Thanks for clarifying that. Eph. 1:13 really is a great verse in that regard. So is the main point of your post about doing evangelism with Pentecostals?
Hi Bucktooth
Don’t take anything Ugly say’s as the Gospel, he sometimes rides backwards on his mule and doesn’t know if he’s coming or going. Now Alvin is a whole different deal, he showers twice a day once when he gets up and then again after he works out. And Alvin has had VERY little experience with LS but mostly with Charismatic’s. Most of my relatives believe you can lose your salvation and speak in tongues, and my best friend speaks in tongues. The Assemblies of God people would come to my Bible Study in my Evangelical Free Youth building and I would go to theirs in the basement of the Assembly of God church. Surprise! Surprise! Heeheeeeeeee
Part 1
I remember my uncle telling me he had a horrible nightmare and that the Lord had told him “depart from Me I never knew you” and then he was cast into hell. He was scarred to death about going to hell. I tried to talk to him about eternal security but he rejected it. He would ask me why is that so important to you. He went on to tell me when he first believed that’s what he believed but then was convinced that was false. He was going completely by his experience and feelings.
My best friend who is a Blackfoot Indian was raised up in the Assemblies of God church and was around the tongues speaking all the time. I was a lathe operator in a plywood plant and he worked on my green chain pulling the veneer off. The Lord kept putting on my heart to go down on my break and give him a break but I didn’t won’t to do it. But God would not let up and kept putting it on my mind until finally I went down and broke him and the rest of the young men. That is how I got to first know them. Then they started coming to my bible study, but then they would go out and get drunk. I’ll call him Ugly but Ugly later told me when he was in the bar he would start crying because he felt God was dealing with him but didn’t know what to do. I believe Ugly was saved at a very young age by just simply believing in a verse like John 3:16 but then later got all messed up. I don’t know that for a fact but that’s what I think. Ugly started running with me and we got into running races together. He was coming to my bible study but attending the Assembly of God church.
Part 2 The Moral of the Story
I would say the moral of this story is that Ugly didn’t have stability in his life and in his walk with God until he KNEW he was a FOREVER CHILD OF GOD! And it ONLY came from me taking him back to the Gospel of John OVER and OVER and OVER because he had been brought up to only SEE the verses that were speaking about losing your rewards. I remember we were on a hundred mile bike ride and we stopped half way up the Mountain and he told me 2 Tim 2:11-13 says that God will disown you. I told him that, the word there should be “deny” he said show me? The problem was in the translation of the bad bible I had given him . . . .woops I messed up there it was an NIV which read “disown.” But when Ugly saw in the KJV it read “deny” and when I explained that to him he got a smile on his face, and I could see why he had bought into a lie and had become FREE AT LAST!!!!!!!
off ta bed . . . . . :)
This be a great tale Humperdink. You be howlin da sweet melody of Jesus' love and livin water. And I'z glad ta hear ya done took a years bath. You an me kin sit at da table now... what's fer supper? When ya gets back from rollin jest ring da bell !!
Hongry Pilgrim
Hey thar Bad you pea-picker . . . . .heeheeeeee
Michele I sent Loren an email because he would be a wonderful person to talk to about what we are talking about. A good question for him would be why God would use someone like me with just the words of life to reach someone the Assemblies of God church couldn’t reach with all their bells and whistles. He is a professional man so he is a busy guy, but when I get his permission I’ll give you his e-mail address. He might give you some very good advice concerning your Grandmother. Loren won’t know me as Alvin but John:)
Clarification: When I said Ugly was a drunk I did not mean he was an alcoholic but simply a “party animal” like I was in the Marines and when I got out if I wasn’t working I usually was drinking. Also I sent him this blog address so hopefully he will come on and and put some flesh and bone to what I've said, he is one pretty cool guy:)
Good morning Gary,
The sun is shining here in Oregon and the high is going to be about 75, isn't that nice?
You said
"Now I better understand what you were driving at in your post and why Eph. 1:13 was so significant for you. Thanks for clarifying that. Eph. 1:13 really is a great verse in that regard. So is the main point of your post about doing evangelism with Pentecostals?"
The main point was to see how you think outside of the GoJ, and how you think outside LS/Calvinism, when it comes to the matter of assurance.
I draw out my own experience and tried to paint a picture so you could put yourself in my shoes (size ten women's) and see what happens.
;) :D
Michele
Hi Alvin,
This is very interesting, "And Alvin has had VERY little experience with LS but mostly with Charismatic’s."
But though your world has been impacted by Calvinism, though right? I just want to get the facts correctly here. That's so interesting, how you were able to give this guy through constantly pointing him back to GoJ the assurance he'd been needing and never got from going to that church. Is it not amazing to hear stories like this, how God can use people to share His Word, I am blessed hearing it.
You said, "Loren won’t know me as Alvin but John:)"
What?? :D Can't tell you how much I think of your thought for me. I think my parents are in la la land. They're being too casual about keeping her pain under control. It won't be too much longer, she is still lucid while her body is shutting down before her eyes, and she can't use words or even her body to express how frustrated she is. I tried to gently talk with my parents about it and it did not go well at all. I appreciate your caring so much.
Michele
Hi Michele
I'm still waiting to here from Loren, I called his cell phone and someone else answered it. So he might have moved and not told me yet. But I'm sure he will get his e-mail and return an answer.
I would love for him to come on here and give you some insight into one who was raised up in the Assemblies of God culture but they couldn't reach him and they were actively trying because he had such a following with the young people.
Yes, Alvin is my middle name and I use it to blog.
Well hopefully your grandmother some where back along the line just simply believed Jesus saving message like a child and then got messed up into Religion like so many have.
alvin :) off to the store for vittles
Hi Alvin, truly you don't know how much that means to me, I thought for awhile 'bout asking you if maybe you'd sing to my grandma on the phone. She loves to listen to people sing. I try to imagine her shoes: physical suffering while figuring out what no one says, that you're dying, all the while, knowing that God is true and real, and yet, also having practically no knowledge of what He is like. Isn't this, like, the worst scenario of all? I think so. This is what we've spent the last ten years talking about: How will God judge us? Is it because of what we do, or because of Christ? And she doesn't find it too pleasant to have a granddaughter presume to have the answer in these years.
In the living room she had center-pieced a paper with a color illustration, from Easter, acknowledging the love Christ demonstrated to us on the cross. This was a new item. I shared this week with her the shortest verse possible, John 6:47. I wanted to highlight the most significant accomplishment of the cross, and give her assurance.
I keep trying to think of ways to introduce the hope of glory to her, but I have kept all my comments on her suffering un-spiritualized, because I think it may induce more stress seeing how this is the end, to talk about all that is in the Word. The point really is, it is too late for her to learn about her Savior. I believe that the LORD will judge her compassionately regardless though. It's too late for me to try and tell her, and it's too late for her to express and discover a desire to believe more. So instead, like the unregenerate, the TV is her consolation in her ear, keeping the peace, holding a familiar anchor that all is well in her world.
I am learning a lot about how precious life, and the gospel, is.
Hi Michele
That's how it was with my Mother-n-law she was a Catholic and she was comfortable in her belief. I couldn't reach her after years of showing her where her belief was false from her own Catholic Bible. I showed her where Jesus had half-brothers and sisters. That Mary needed a Saviour because she was a sinner like everyone. I showed her we are not to call anyone Father in a spiritual sense but she would not have any of it. She would just say your hurting my faith. And you don't have as many Scriptures as we do, and the Catholic faith is the biggest it's got to be right. So I stopped upsetting her and let her go the way she had chose to go.
I believe the issue at the judgement will be to prove no ones rightousness was enough, and the final book will show that they did not believe. But as far as hell I believe the suffering will be according to the degree one sowed to their flesh and what they reap will be accodingly.
I'm always willing to sing to someone . . . .even if I might foget the words or the tune and make a fool out of myself . . . .I'm always ready to make a fool out of myself for Christ in front of hundreds of people, or even just one:)
sincerely alvin
Hi Alvin,
I am sorry to hear that. Yes, it's hard, for me to know what to do. You said, "I'm always ready to make a fool out of myself for Christ in front of hundreds of people, or even just one:)" I really like that, it reminds me of me, I've been blogging for four years now, and you have to have those sorts of guts lying around in stockpile I think to do this sort of thing, don't you? It's become part of my worship (journaling/meditation is a spiritual discipline, only it's public too which is really neat when you think about it).
Your friend and sister, Michele
Actually this blogging is easy for me, now singing is all together different. As long as it’s spontaneous there’s no problem it’s when I have time to think about it I have problems especially when I’m getting up in front of a lot of people. But that was how it was when I preached too I would struggle all the night before, it’s something that really tested my faith. Even though God always saw me through. When I stopped a Calvinist preacher from getting the pastorate at our church. I had to be willing to fill the pulpit until we got someone. I was even willing to be the Pastor if God was calling me to do that, and I knew if He was He would give me the strength. And when I told my wife that God might be calling me to this, she said if He is He will have to do a big work in my life. They didn’t want to train someone new but wanted a more experienced Pastor . . . .with credentials . . . . .Seminary credentials . . . . . .you know where they go to get all messed up. The leaders were so mad at me for standing against this Calvinist who said “It is unscriptural to tell people God loves them for in fact His plan for them might be the eternal lake of fire and you would be lying to them.” They took the list for people to sign up to preach when they saw my name on it they ripped it up and through it away. They had a special meeting afterwards, and I wasn’t going to go to it because I had to work that night. My job broke down that night and they sent me home, which NEVER happens. I knew then that God wanted me to go to this meeting. He layed on my heart not to defend myself so I didn’t even take my bible with me. They tore into me up one side and down the other, and their leading elder came out for the first time and stated he didn’t know if he believed in eternal security. And he gave the five-points of Calvinism and the five-points of Armininism and said we believe some from both and we could have worked with this Calvinist preacher who was Orthodox. These people I minstered for years with their children and their old folks in the care center. It was probably the lowest time in my life, there were few who stood with me. Well I’ve already said too much.
Alvin :)
Here is Lorens web site and an e-mail I got from him. I'm getting ready to go to work now. But I will try to get him to come here later. Your all welcome to go to his web site and ask him anything you would like about me.
alvin :)
Hey, John nice to here from you. Funny you should write the same time I was updating my website. I was updating stuff about my journey in the pentecostal church and how hard it is to step away from an upbringing to look for Grace. This step can be from any "organized religion". My website is knowgrace.net
Hi Alvin, I loved Loren's site and his testimony. My favorite part was his testimony and then "Why people doubt their salvation":
- trusts in their own heart instead prov 28:26
- corrupted from the simplicity 2 cor 11:3
- Word no effect because of tradition mk 7:13
- trusts in own righteousness Is 64:6
Nice.
You said, "As long as it’s spontaneous there’s no problem it’s when I have time to think about it I have problems especially when I’m getting up in front of a lot of people." Gosh, that's so like me too, I do everything by inspiration only and it takes a good deal of concentration outside of that.
Did it go that your vote was the tiebreaker, or something, on why the Calvinist preacher didn't get in? If so I wonder if that didn't make everyone anxious, thinking they'd rather have it filled and say that Calvinism isn't going away any time soon? Maybe that's why they tore into you, is because of what they were going through and possibly their own confusion. Did you ever get a chance to explain your beliefs to any of them later? I'm sorry you felt alone in that experience, of course excluding our LORD.
:D
Michele
Hi Michele sorry about your lose of your Grandmother. I know Grandmothers are so precious. Mine raised me from about 6 months old, and loved me with an unconditional love. And I was VERY unlovable.
I'm glad you enjoyed Loren's testimony:)
A lot of the people in the Church didn't understand Calvinism at all. I made them aware of how horrible it was, they had a pretty good clue from what the Pastor had said that something was real wrong. But the man was very Charismatic and very likeable. It wasn't to much after that I came into contact with Zane's book "Absolutely Free." I gave away a lot of books. It probably confused a lot of people because I had just fought strongly against a Calvinist and then I go and give them a book that had John Calvin's name all through it. I'm sure many thought I was confused.
well better get to bed....have a great Day:)
alvin
Hi Alvin,
Were you giving them away because you didn't want to read Calvinism anymore? :) Gary was telling me the same thing, he has a lot of books he doesn't know what to do with.
I think you're right, most christianity doesn't really understand calvinism, that was just like me. I marvel again and again how FG doctrines just clear the air on so many things that are unbiblical. That reminds me, I have three books I've started reading. Time to get crackin'. Are you reading anything interesting these days?
:D
Michele said:
Were you giving them away because you didn't want to read Calvinism anymore?Absolutely not!!!!! I was giving them away because Zane was showing the difference between the gift that is absolutely free and discipleship which costs everything.
My concern was that when they saw John Calvin's name in the book that they would think that in some way I agreed with John Calvin.
Zane was using John Calvin's statement "faith alone in Christ alone" as a foundation for proving what he was saying was not new.
But John Calvin believed in infant Baptism and because the parents were elect then the children were. So Calvin constantly contradicted himself. He put people under the rule of law thinking that he was in the kingdom and Geneva was the city of God.
Zane did have this statement in his book page 85,86.
Zane said:
After all, the Bible declares that “God our Savior . . . . desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” ( 1 Tim 2:3-4). His love is boundless and is directed toward every man.
Frequently (through not always) lordship salvation is combined with a harsh system of thought that denies the reality of God’s love for every single human being. According to this kind of theology, God dooms most men to eternal damnation long before they are born and really gives His Son to die only for the elect.
For such thinkers, the declaration that “God so loved the world” (John 3:16) must be tortured into meaning something less than His universal love for humankind. It does not lie within the scope of this book to deal with this tragic error. The author can only trust that most readers will be content to rest on the single assertions of Scripture about God’s feelings and provision for lost people (Jn 1:7, 29; 3:16-17; 4:42; 12:32; 2 Cor 5:19; 1 Tim 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2). end quote
Michele I always have a copy of Zane’s book “Absolutely Free” on hand to give to anyone searching for the truth:)
alvin
Good morning Alvin,
You said "Zane was using John Calvin's statement "faith alone in Christ alone" as a foundation for proving what he was saying was not new.
But John Calvin believed in infant Baptism and because the parents were elect then the children were. So Calvin constantly contradicted himself."
How interesting! That's so interesting, how people can hold the theology of God's grace on paper and then somewhere along the line, forget it, and hold to their little arrangement of "biblical" laws and regs which prove or administer His righteousness.
Actually it is quite sad. And much too common I'm afraid.... You've seen a lot of that too from what I know.
Your excerpt of Hodges was wonderful. Amen! I'm glad you keep a copy of that ready. That's cool.
:D Hope you're smiling today because of Christ!
Michele
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