"Any committee meetings going on up there?" I ask. "Strategy planning sessions?"
Folks laugh. They think I'm kidding.
"How about God? Does He do any work? What about God asking for opinions on important matters? Does Heaven have anything like an agenda for the day?" [1]
Wilkinson looks to a few passages in scripture to help his readers sit in on heaven. 1 Kings 22:19-22
Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
'By what means?' the LORD asked.
'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
In this passage, the LORD asks those in His presence "who will" do His will? Isaiah 6:8 says,
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isaiah did not hesitate to offer himself as a candidate for accomplishing His purposes. He passionately replied to God's invitation.
John 5:17 says,
Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
Wilkinson asserts that heaven, and events on earth, are inescapably linked together in innumerable ways. There are four "keys" he introduces in his book to help align readers to hear God's invitations and participate in delivering miracles. In the next post, those four keys will be discussed.
God's purpose for doing a miracle is always the same: to meet a person's need. [1]
[1] Wilkinson, Bruce & Kopp, David. (2009). You Were Born For This: 7 Kets to a Life of Predictable Miracles. Colorado Springs, CO: Multnomah Books, pg. 31, 35.
34 comments:
Ah, Michele. Now I'm starting to see why you're so excited about this book. I knew there was more to Wilkinson than "Jabez" when I discovered The Dream Giver a few years ago, and this book continues in the same vein of honoring both divine sovereignty and genuinely free human will as thoroughly biblical. These two are more than just "compatible"; they are inextricably intertwined in the wonderful---even if largely inscrutable---plan of God. (I'd be interested in Bobby's and Duane's takes on the notion of "compatibility" here.)
Most Calvinists never touch these kinds of texts, but most FGers don't, either; yet, it is precisely this kind of exploration that I believe is most fertile for our theological development as a movement: These texts give depth and substance to the notion of human agency which in turn makes life so exciting and worth living: Can you believe it? We've been invited to actively participate---be organically involved---in the Father's "business" as we abide in Christ, with whom we are now identified and united!
This key role of human agency is what I have now come to hold as the theological core of John's Gospel, as I worked my way last fall through that series of John 3:16 articles on KC's blog, especially this one. I have also emphasized this meaningful and substantive human agency in my previous exposition of the theology of Job and Ecclesiastes. (I hope you don't mind the shameless plugs, Michele. :-) Feel free to delete.
I think we need to ground human agency in the archetypal human, Jesus. So in that vein I have no problem with Spirit anointed human agency acting out in all its createdness as instantiated in Jesus Christ, the God-MAN :-).
This is actually the benefit of thinking through these things via the incarnation and hypostatic union. There isn't a dualist competition set up between the divine and human, there is an inseparable interpenetrating, yet distinct, relation --- and all of this grounded in Christ (i.e. time and eternity, etc.).
For anyone interested in reading further on this see TF Torrances' book "Incarnation" [Jim] or his book "Ground and Grammar of Theology" (which really fleshes out his thoughts on the divine and human relation and other unbiblical dualities like sacred/secular, time/eternity, etc. --- there is certainly distinction i.e. Creator/creation but an inseparable relation grounded no less in the Hypostatic Union and Homoousion itself).
Hi Jim and Michele.
Let me say it like this:
We don't need to speak of humanity as some sort of autonomy just to maintain its "createdeness;" in fact we do damage to it -- the idea of human agency -- if we do speak this way. If we take being created and recreated in the image of God seriously, then to speak of humanity must be first grounded in the God-Man. If not we have created a notion of humanity that ends up being Pelagian, and beyond that end up with a Christology that is adoptionistic.
Does this make more sense? We have to ground humanity in the hypostatic union.
Not sure I follow your "do damage to it" comment regarding the issue of human agency. It might be helpful here for those unschooled (including me) in the terms you are using to explain what "adoptionism" is and how you see my question about "compatibility" as potentially invoking that...or frank Pelagianism, for that matter.
As to the hypostatic union, would you concede that Jesus had a human free will?
Jim,
To quote you from your link to the series at KC's blog,
"Awwwkwaaard."
You think the GOJ at its theological core is a 3-D salvation. That is very interesting especially for free grace. Boy I wish I was smart. It looks like a blast from here....
I had a hunch that you would enjoy any implications (as I am also now) of the concepts of "agents" or "strategy" while reading this. :)
We're enlisted for a special cause, and awaiting specific instructions from the Father!
Regarding miracles, the book doesn't say this, but I have no reason to believe that Dr. Wilkinson would not agree that the most important need that God wants to meet for humanity is salvation in Christ by faith. That is the greatest "miracle" of all.
Keep plugging away, BTW. I almost quoted from your book in my last post on Biblical Feminism, to help explain how there is no righteousness in following empty principles unless God (faith in Christ) is also in it. Or at least that's my simple way of saying this sort of thing.
Michele
Hi Bobby,
If I bring up John 11 I don't know if I am talking on the same issue or else too specifically for any good use.
When I was reading John 11, I was thinking about the strategy session Jesus held in in the midst of his disciples. Jesus is telling them how they can participate in this strategy when he says in verse 9-10,
"Jesus answered, 'Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.'"
The circumstances seemed to confuse just about everyone, except to a point, Martha. But even Martha, after confessing her awareness (faith in the truth) in resurrection and faith in Christ's full favor with the Father, missed how entirely good God is, how great a miracle He really wanted to do in immediately raising Lazarus. She confesses her lesser-faith by replying about rolling away the stone, "Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days."
The rest of them were confused by every other detail as Jesus navigated right through this crazy and risk-filled scene. They thought Lazarus was only sleeping, but he was dead. They thought Jesus would be stoned for sure, and they would also die. They must have noticed that Jesus waited an additional two days to depart when even the sisters said to Jesus "Jesus the one you love is dying." Why would Jesus be slow to go for one He loves??
As Dr. Wilkinson mentions in the videos of these posts, he often could not perform miracles because there was no faith.
Jesus says to Martha, "Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"
And God's glory was maximized by all these details which appeared to be chaos to the casual disciple.
Michele
Jim, Bobby,
I wonder, was it only Martha's faith that was enough for Jesus to perform that miracle?
Now with Martha, I notice some things about her.
"Now Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever you ask of God, God will give You.'
Jesus said to her, 'Your brother will rise again.'
Martha said to Him, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?'
She said to Him, 'Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.'"
vs. 21-27
Martha had theological knowledge. He took her knowledge to the next level but He also asked one more thing - to apply it personally. "Do you believe this?" She had knowledge of the scriptures and spoke the truth about who He was every time opportunity came! She spoke back to Christ, truth, even in this new challenge to her understandings. Her doctrines were not a perfect knowledge, but they were her statements of how she trusted Him in her circumstance.
Her trusting-ness wasn't just in a dry confession. She was tested with a deeper understanding of God's qualities of eternal life, to release Christ in this glory for God.
BTW, she didn't have to pass every theological test in order to qualify for God-honoring faith.
:-)
Ain't it grand?
Was hoping for a little more feedback there.... ;)
Hi Bobby,
I hope it wasn't too tender for me to discuss john 11, I saw it as your header. Just wanted to thank you for sharing your life openly with others. I don't know if that is difficult or easy for you, but it blesses me to look on your faith as you are looking on Christ. I imagine it is hard at times to be a blogger when other things require a lot of concentration.
Praying for you
Michele
Well, OK, Michele...
I agree with everything you said.
Could it be that Michele is "channeling" Martha on the theology and faith issue? (i.e., how much theology is enough vs. God-honoring trust in God for "qualities of eternal life"?)
What you think you may lack in "smarts" is more than made up for by your keen intuitive awareness. (Now don't get on my case, Bobby, for using that term---Michele knows what I'm talking about.)
Bobby,
How do you see Matt 21:28-31?
"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
Do you see any contingency here? How would you relate the will of the father to that of the two sons? On exactly what does the order of entry into the Kingdom depend?
Hi Jim,
I agree with everything you said.
There is no way I take it for granted, ever.
As for intuitive awareness, you might enjoy the next post where Dr. Wilkinson talks about the way in which God guides us on His miracle missions.
One of the things that I appreciate about his book is that he intentionally does not make this about the theology of miracles.
He really honors Christ like a living, speaking Person in the inward man.
Wow, a flurry since I lasted checked . . . I almost was going to give up. :-)
Jim, I wasn't saying your view was adoptionistic (i.e. that Jesus merely "adopted" or " the theory that Jesus was born human but adopted to be the Son of God" from Torrance); but that to not ground talk about humanity in His humanity could lend itself to this approach (e.g. creating a false dichotomy between the Creator/creature in Christ, and thus not grounding our discussions about the divine/human in that framework).
Anywho, and Jim, I've seen you interact over at "Theology Forum" (you seem to engage in some conversational "tactics" i.e. the "way" you talk and engage at points ;-).
On your Mt. question. Yes indeed, I do see contingency. I'm curious though, what are you getting at with that question; could you clarify before I try to respond?
Michele,
On Jn 11, my initial impression, as far as faith and contingency is that it's not a matter of if God was going to act in Christ, but when. To expand the context out further, literarily, what is going on here is a foreshadowing of an even greater "miracle" (the resurrection of Jesus) yet to come. So as I think this through what this says is that the source of unbelief (or lack of faith) which results in God not doing "miracles" (for example), at points, is all rooted in the very "unbelief" that led to Jesus' crucifixion in the first place (i.e. if they had believed they wouldn't have crucified Him, which is what Peter says in Acts).
So my point is that while unbelief results, at the moment, in Jesus not doing miracles (because in that context "an evil and adulterous generation seeks such things"); ironically it is that very unbelief that leads to the greatest climaxing miracle of all --- His death, burial, and RESURRECTION!
So it's not that I see "unbelief" preventing God from working, per se; it's only the occasion wherein He sovereignly uses that "unbelief" as the crux which He then reverses through the institution of His New Covenant in His blood.
In short, I see the reason for Him not doing certain miracles based upon His knowledge of what is in man's heart (like Jn 2); and that those "lack" of miracles are really only cascading toward the Great Miracle/Reversal wherein He deals with the source of the unbelief that produced His desire "not to act" (in the past) in the first place --- because He was already acting on a much bigger scale in the first place.
I wonder if what Wilkinson is doing is asking more of the text (which is narrative and thus "descriptive" by nature) than it intended to answer in the first place?
As far as bringing up Jn 11, no, I love this text! In fact the Lord has been putting Jn 11:4 on my heart ever since we found out that I had this mass (before we even knew exactly what it was). I'm taking it as His promise to me . . . :-). It's interesting I've shared this with some Christians and they almost seem tepid when they hear that I believe that this is the Lord's promise to me (like their "hopeful"). I'm more than "hopeful," I believe I've heard from the Lord, this clearly, and I expect Him to keep His word :-)! And as far as openness, I have no problem with being open; I want people to pray and experience the Lord through this too --- isn't that what being part of the body of Christ is about?
Jim,
Oh, and yes I do believe Jesus has/had a "free-will," in fact I believe we have "free-wills." Of course since the 'Fall' our free-wills by definition are always going to choose ourselves (because we love ourselves). Jesus displays what being 'human' really means, and that is to have Holy Spirit anointed 'free-will' wherein real freedom is realized (thus Rom 6--8); and where it was originally to find its order. So I see Jesus choosing, by the Holy Spirit, the way we should; and thus I see our union with His humanity (and vice versa) as the key for human free-will to have the capacity to actually choose someone else other than themselves. Jesus trailblazes for humanity the way that it should be real humanity (i.e. rightly ordered/rightly related to God/our Creator).
As far as what "caused the 'Fall'", I think that is a non-starter to speculate on. All we have is what has been revealed; and as far as I can see the LORD never revealed what "caused" the 'fall' (so we can try an attribute that to secondary deterministic causes like the Classic Calvinist does, or we can attribute it to man's 'free-will' like the Arminian does . . . but both of these options flounder IMO, again, because they rely on speculative thinking and thus shaky ground [at least as far as building theological frameworks goes]).
Okay, I better run . . . I'll be back (thanks for inviting me to this conversation, both Jim ;-) and Michele).
Why Bobby, are you accusing me of "copping an attitude" in my exchanges over at TF? Whatever might lead you to that conclusion??? ;-)
Yeah, you caught me, Bro....it just irritates the fool out of me how these guys choke on so many theological gnats and swallow the camel, so I've been known to throw stuff out to bait them. It doesn't work, so I've pulled back. Here are my issues:
1) At times they're so stuffed with themselves and full of theological "piss and vinegar" that they completely miss the "weightier matters of the law"; my comments have mostly been designed to try to refocus the dialogue on what's ultimately of most importance. They mostly ignore me, for the most part (although one of them has told me in private that he sees my contributions as right on target; since he's the least oppositional, he shrinks from weighing in on the "hand-to-hand combat").
2) There is a virtual absence of any biblical theology in the arguments, and that is a major issue with me in any theological discussion. The same guy (above) told me privately that he had essentially given up on being able to achieve any consensus on what the Bible really says, so Scripture carries little if any weight in the discussions; they've lost me right there, so some of my comments are aimed at getting people to admit that it's really profoundly influenced their whole epistemology.
Kenton Sparks (God's Word in Human Words) is one of the few to have openly admitted as much in our debate on the pessimistic implications of his epistemic approach ("critical realism") and the central thesis of his book (the lack of "science" [ie, historical/archaeological evidence] to support most of the stuff in the Bible trumps the reliability of Scriptural self-attestation).
Hence, I think some of the interlocutors there are dangerously close to theological nihilism, which explains what happened to people like Bart Ehrman.
Sorry, guess you pushed a button, Bro...
Bobby (I pray others will forgive my own use of heavy-duty terminology below),
Regarding your response to Mt 21, I see that as an "Evangelical Calvinist" you fully allow for contingency in human free will. We've been engaged in enough discussions together on so many threads, that I basically think I know where you're coming from but I'm not sure why you raised the specter of Pelagianism in response to my question about your position on the "compatibility" issue.
Any discussion of "miracles" is bound to surface some angst over whether God is, on the one hand, too "heavy handed" in his use of supernatural power to secure his will in dealing with unreliable humans or, on the other hand, too "loosey-goosey" with his sovereign will in letting humans "influence" that supernatural power (as in Open Theism).
I think that the main problem is a metaphysical framing error: We humans really don't understand the dichotomy in dimensionality when we try to "explain" how humans can have free will and God can still be completely "impassible" in the exercise of his sovereign will. I think I see you resolving this [only apparent] conundrum by invoking the hypostatic union. In other words, the God-Man Jesus is the only One who can ever bridge the "dimensionality gap" between God and man, so it is only by our union in Christ that we can participate [freely] in the divine will as "agents" of any kind. It is only an apparent conundrum, because God's sovereignty does not require "impassibility" in his response to human free will exercised in the humanly constrained dimensions of time and space.
"Yes" or "no" answer, please. ;-)
Sorry, Michele....again, feel free to delete.
Jim,
on "TF," I see what you're saying, although I don't get that impression with Kyle . . . I know a bit of his background out of Talbot (my friend with through the Philosophy program with him). And his work on Edwards seems to be a good thing for him (as far as biblicism). I frequent many blogs that are even less "biblical" than TF, so in some ways I find them mild --- unfortunately.
On your question, and Jesus as the bridge. "Yes". I also think we need to think of God in terms of relationality/trinitarianly; I also think this reframes these kinds of discussions.
As far as Wilkinson, ever since his "Jabez" book I've been really unimpressed with his method. That's not to say he can't make some goood points, but his Jabez fiasco reflected a real disappointment. He took that whole thing out of context and used it as a pretext to present a formula for prayer that I don't think was there in its original context or in principle. So anything else I see him doing makes me wary, which includes this most recent work. No offense, Michele.
Hi Michele, Jim and Bobby!
Sorry I missed the party!
I just hit my week end (night shift again) catching up on the net. On "Prime Time America" a daily radio news magazine production from Moody, I heard Ravi Zacharias, and Dr Jerry Benjamin in separate interviews, one of them quotes A. W. Tozer: "Whom God would use greatly, He will hurt deeply."
I snagged that for myself, in hopes that the Lord still has some significant purpose for me here (terra firma- that's latin I think). I also pass it on to Bobby, because I believe you have a long life ahead.
Regarding the author of Jabez, I'll have to lsiten tomorrow, my ears are hot from all the listening (it's 3:00 am).
Regarding contingency, the fact that they did not have faith, so he could not do many miracles:
I prefer Bobby's take, and thankful that question answered, because I did not think it His nature, for His miracles to be (lets says physically) dependent on another's faith. Maybe the explanation does not fit every catagory for the question, but it's better than my interpretation on a cold reading.
My name was invoked at the top of this comment forum. In the interview Ravi was talking about his book "The Grand Weaver: How God Shapes Us Through the Events of Our Lives".
I think I'm much MORE deterministic when discussing the life of the believer.
Jesus, our vicarous man prayed
"Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, none the less not my will but thy will be done."
I guess that is my default prayer in this season: "Lord (grumble grumble, whine) please GET ME OUTA HERE! But no, whatever you need to do, don't stop, do what you have to do, even if I say otherwise."
I also think of the story in 2 kings 4:1ff about the woman whose husband died. Elisha had her borrow pots from her neighbors which she then filled them all up from the one vessel of oil she had. With the quantity of oil she ended with, she was able to pay her debt and have some to live on.
If she had borrowed more vessels, she would have had more oil?
So, I'm viewing not giving up as borrowing those vessels, to fill with spiritual fruit which He is going to provide, so that something of my time here will survive into eternity. I believe relationship with the Lord is central, but I could go home to the Lord before daybreak, and we would get along just swell, so there must be some reason for keeping me here.
BTW everybody, and maybe "for such a time as this": My granddaughters' uncle is going through a tough time: his sister (also my grand kids' father's sister) committed suicide before the girls were born and he was preteen. He tried to kill himself
recently, and is in recovery now.
He visits us frequently (I believe he is safe), so I witnessed to him the other day. I don't know how deeply it penetrated, but I know it is the Holy Spirit who moves hearts. Please pray that I would live the witness (I am not on speaking terms with his brother*), and that the Spirit would move him toward Christ. He certainly needs Jesus, as does his brother and parents.
Thanks Your Brother
* My Granddaughters live with us and are our dependents.
So any blind man could see that the reason I am still here is for my family. DUH!
Duane,
It's good to catch a glimpse of you "in the wild" as you flash by, and I am glad to have an opportunity to pray for you and your heart's request. I feel your identification with the Tozer quote and I identify intensely with your heart-passion to have "something of my time here . . . survive into eternity."
I think that passion is intrinsic to the "miracle" thing that Wilkinson is trying to tap into. I haven't listened to any of the clips but I get that sense out of Michele's review---it's sort of like, miracles (the way he is defining them) are the way that we "participate" in what God is already up to in his redemptive work on earth. But then in this light, miracles are nothing more than God's way of bridging the "dimension gap" between divine and human agency through the power of the Spirit in our union with Christ, in which I totally agree with Bobby. We are going through the book of Acts in our current sermon series, and this metaphysical reality of "gap-bridging" is the very tangible sense I get especially in Acts. IOW when we hear God's bidding and our hearts align with His heart, miracles happen that "install" us---along with our God-given passions---directly into His redemptive activity on earth.
Good to see you, miracle man.
Hi Bobby,
No offense, Michele.
No offense. No one who I know, endorses or has even read the book for the potential. But I know that I am attracted to this topic and more importantly what I want to know is what you think.
So as I think this through what this says is that the source of unbelief (or lack of faith) which results in God not doing "miracles" (for example), at points, is all rooted in the very "unbelief" that led to Jesus' crucifixion in the first place (i.e. if they had believed they wouldn't have crucified Him, which is what Peter says in Acts).
I have never connected how Christ did not do miracles because there was no faith, with how He died (and was resurrected) because there was no faith.
As far as bringing up Jn 11, no, I love this text! In fact the Lord has been putting Jn 11:4 on my heart ever since we found out that I had this mass (before we even knew exactly what it was). I'm taking it as His promise to me . . . :-). It's interesting I've shared this with some Christians and they almost seem tepid when they hear that I believe that this is the Lord's promise to me (like their "hopeful"). I'm more than "hopeful," I believe I've heard from the Lord, this clearly, and I expect Him to keep His word :-)!
From where I am at your faith is larger than life and it is an incredible blessing and encouragement. I want to know Him more intimately because of God's great love!
I have appreciated your occasional comments that we would not be found "four years later to not have changed anything of what we know and believe" as you've said, but instead be open. That really sunk in to my heart little did you know. As I am "sharing" Wilkinson's book, I get the privilege of weighing what I am hearing. I don't want to think Wilkinson erring or myself either, and the parts of the Body will help one another not lose a firm stance on truth.
Thanks for commenting!
Hi Jim,
I can tell you're a strategist.
At times they're so stuffed with themselves and full of theological "piss and vinegar" that they completely miss the "weightier matters of the law"; my comments have mostly been designed to try to refocus the dialogue on what's ultimately of most importance. They mostly ignore me, for the most part (although one of them has told me in private that he sees my contributions as right on target; since he's the least oppositional, he shrinks from weighing in on the "hand-to-hand combat").
Isn't it funny (I discover for myself), that the more gracious the theological persuasion, the oftentimes less willing they are to get identified with declaring the sorts of things they believe are quite necessary.
I'm not deleting your comments, and yes I can read them and understand them most often.
:D
Hi Duane,
That is such a great thing to share the gospel within your own family. The LORD is keeping you around for all sorts of reasons - and I didn't realize that you are helping support your grandchildren. How cool - God is alive in you brother! You remind me how much I need to be praying.
Michele
Well, Michele, if you want to get into name-calling ("strategist"), it takes one to know one.
Nanny-nanny boo boo
:-)
Thanks So much Michele!
The three of you here are treasured brothers and sister, with others not here tonight.
The girls: Hannah 4 1/2 and Grace 2 & 5 months are absolutely precious, and quite a handful. My wife and I are greatly blessed to have them here with their mother. Which presents an internal conflict:
(prayer alert) Their father comes around to play with them a couple times a week. He plays lip service to being respectful, but we have had words. I am not at peace either as things are now (basically estrangement) nor with attempting to make peace with him.
I fear him adding more pain to our daughter's life and our granddaughters. I fear him taking them away from us. If he became a Christian, obviously that would be wonderful, but as things are now, it would do no good to witness to him without Christ's love. Maybe I'm having trouble truly forgiving him because it's an ongoing offense and threat. So, I hope I haven't shared too much this time, I'll understand Michele if you deleate, but...I stand in the need of prayer.
praying for a miracle
Duane
Hi Duane,
I'm sorry. I definitely want to pray for their father. It is such a tender situation and so I'll ask God to give you wisdom and also peace!! God is very good.
Did you know the meaning of the name "Hannah" is "grace"? :D These two little girls share the same name. Was that on purpose?
Yesterday afternoon I got to share the gospel with a five year old girl who said she believed in God but was worried because she still had a lot of questions. Is that not amazing? She received it with joy. Praise the LORD....
Do you always stop and stare when a person is being birthed in Christ? Hoowee! I find myself doing double-takes.
Michele
Thanks, Michele,
You are a good sister, and Jim and Duane are good brothers. When I interact with you all it's like a nice break from typical blogging banter (which unfortunately I fall into myself, at points).
Thanks for being people of the "Spirit," because that's who I sense when I interact with you all . . . I would say, by and large, this He is devoid in most of the theo-blogosphere (even on the blogs where the Trinitarianism is emphasized as a dogma, maybe that's the problem, as a dogma, not a relationship).
Anyway, continue to walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (I constantly repeat to myself :-).
In Christ,
Bobby
Bobby,
I agree with you, Bro, about the sad lack of true Spirit-led interactions on the blogs. I deeply appreciate your transparency and agree in the Spirit with what Michele and Duane have shared as well. May your soul prosper during this trial.
Duane,
I am a grandfather as well, and I deeply feel your distress; my son and his wife have a stressful relationship and three beautiful kids. Even with his upcoming 15 month deployment to Bagdad, I know they'll just have to pick up where they left off when he returns; deployments are never a solution when there's problems at home. The kids are always in the middle, it seems.
I'm glad you felt free to vent--- I'm prayin', Bro. And I'm sure KC feels the same way.
Hi Michele, and Jim and Bobby!
Thanks Michele please do, yes I do try to pray for their father every day. I also ask that the Lord change my heart to see as HE (the Lord) sees. I know that his family life has been broken for a long time. I wonder if I am not playing the part of Jonah, fleeing on a ship.
Otherwise, maybe it's just the Lord's timing, and the ice will break when it breaks.
And yes the story of Hannah and Samuel has always been one of my wife's favorite stories to read to our daughter, whose first and middle names mean "pure heart, consecrated to God". Grace is a name from their other side which name we also love.
Yes it is wonderful to see people come to the Lord. Then we worry about them.
Bobby, reading you over at affect... or uh Evangelical Calvinist tonight, I know I have to adress my Sunday School class (if I can get the lecturn again)
The class leader is going through the parables, and their interpretation is often, "well this one is saved and that one isn't and...we have to do thus and such..."
I have to grasp their attention (by the Spirit of course ;)) and emphasize to them "look! Jesus wants a living breathing relationship with you. He already knows what's inside you and your full of crap. He's already taken care of that as we have discussed He paid that awfull price for you while you were still dead. Now His spirit is in you dying for communion. When you sin, you think He don't already know? He just wants you to fess up so you're not covering up because that gets in the way of the communion. He loves you and wants to be intimate with you, and that takes total communication and honesty with Him. And total trust. If you think He's standing on a gallows with a rope for your neck in case you get it wrong in the end-- some marriage!"
Yes, I sense the Charity of the Spirit in all of you as well. Bobby no offense, but when you re-posted your video, I sniggered because you seem so young and timid in the video. Reading your Affective blog tonight, and that is a couple of years old, I think that you are much more mature in the Lord than your video portrays. That's good. Keep 'em guessing ;). If it were not true, I would not spend as much time at your place as I have.
If I can find a brother in church who is as available and as easy to talk with as you all are... and yes I get pretty firey sometimes on issues of determinism and grace plus works and assurance.
Bobby if I have ever wrongly offended you by my rhetoric, I apologize, and thank you for your graciousness to date.
Jim, I'll be praying for your family as well. 15 months overseas is along time.
One more personal note. We purchased this 2 bedroom cottage-style house 5 years ago, before my daughter gave birth.
It was just my wife and me. Now there are five of us (I'm the only guy) plus 2 little girl dogs, all crammed into this little house. The family dynamics, well my wife still manages to hide in our room, but I'd say we are pretty tight. I can't wait until we are all living in communion with Him as well as each other. Please Lord, make it so.
I wish I had more time but for now please know I really appreciate your effort and direction Michelle and all the loving people in discussion here.
You guys really are salt and light and I'm praying for us all.
HI Michelle and All!
I have good news connected to your prayers for me and my family, which I will share in my next post.
I also have good news regarding my blog here: http://foreknownelect.blogspot.com/
The blog is finally getting some attention. The problem is, it's turning into a grudge match of one.
I don't think I'm interested in wrestling with this one. But just so you all know it's kind of like a loony tunes cartoon where, in the cat fight, all you can see is the blur of the cat goin' roun' and roun', and he keeps pulling others into the fight: people who aren't even there. It would mislabel it to call it "surreel", but that's the word verification below the com box right now ;). Bobby and Jim, you are both involved. I'm trying to defend your honor but it's hard (just kidding). I guess when any of us gets on a roll, (just look at my blog) particulary something we are compassionate about, it is hard to answer, just for the overwhelming number of arguments.
I also know that this person comes from a place of real injury and tragedy, so their motives are (good?, pure? justified?) je nais se qua - that's french I think.
So lurk on or pitch in. Comment moderation is on, just so people can communicate with me personally (an open invitation) if they don't wish to post (just say "please don't post this).
On to the other good news:
I know that I have been whining and groaning alot lately. I know that you all have been praying for me and my family. Thank you so very much. I must not forget that it is in breaking us that He pours us out for others.
I'm going to stammer along here, I'm not sure I'm saying what I mean, so please salt it with Grace.
I suddenly feel awash in His light.
He has given me so much. These truths of abiding (Jim and KC) and Affective theology (Bobby et. al.). I realize that I have served legalistically for years, despite all attempts not to.
What I'm coming to grasp, is that God-Father Son and Holy Spirit have eternally existed in familial bliss. We were created to extend that bliss even infinitely farther. We were created BECAUSE He loves us. Forever He has loved us, because forever He has (He being eternal, timeless) known us. He became one of us to sup with us. He grasped us from the cross, and took us with Him spiritually in the resurrection.
He created us because of the eternal Love between Father Son and Holy Spirit. He created us and saved us because He has always loved us. As we trusting, abide in Him, grasping (beginning to grasp) that love, and grasping (not letting go), the Love of Christ want's to flow through us and reach out to the next object of His affection. I frustrate this and myself by not understanding that it is only ONLY love from Christ folded back in toward Christ that will motivate us to truly love others. It is only that very love that motivates us and enables us to do any of the works of God. For without love I am a sounding brass and crashing cymbal.
I am only sharing this because I want you to know that the Lord hears and answers your prayers.
I have known for over 25 years that Haiti is the black hole of calcutta for the western hemisphere. When another tragedy strikes, I bristle at the news because it's always "blame america". No different this time.
But the Lord says something like: "It's nice to have your grand babies in the next room isn't it?" "Isn't it nice to know they are safe and warm and not hungry?" "Don't you think it's good that they are well loved in your family?"
Actually, this began with a representative of Compassion Int'l on Moody radio talking about Haiti relief. So I went to the web site. I began to look at the children who need sponsors, and browsed for a little girl in Haiti who needs a sponsor. Oops! They aren't available in Haiti at this time because they don't know yet who in the program (65,000 plus children in Haiti!) has survived, and where they are. I have to pray for a little girl known only by the Lord at this time, that she will be safe today and get something to eat, and that she will be safe tonight. I cry every time I think about her, and I pray for her and for the staff that will find her. I look at my babies, and my wife and daughter, even my puppies, and I want to hold them close and let them know that they are loved.
The only thing I have to add is that you all (all of you) have helped me to see this.
If we don't meet up 'til then, I owe each one of you one big hug.
Thanks! Keep praying!
Your brother
PS I don't know of any kind of meeting place for us except for these wonderful blogs, which are always topical discussions, which I always manage to draw off topic, so in case there is indeed a void, I have just set up a blog for non-topical, just "what-cha-doin'?" type chat. Comment is always real time, but there is usually a time lag because we are on different schedules, but come over and say "hey". I'm a good ear:
http://brandfcoffee.blogspot.com
Hey Michelle?
I was pretty dubious listening to your Jabez friend.
I feel kind a weird about this, but you guys prayed for me believing for a miracle or whatever right?
Maybe I should give Pastor Wilkinson a closer look?
Signed
Real Suspicious of POP Theology
hello... hapi blogging... have a nice day! just visiting here....
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