This year's conference is going very well. I had not attended last year's conference, but the one two years back, and I am very excited to see some familiar faces from that former time. My former pastor is here, Don Reiher is here, John Doan is here.... It is comforting to have Jody Dillow deliver a message at GES and then also here. I have loved all the sessions thus far.
Dr. Chay's session on where the FGA has come from and where it is going was an overview of the purpose of the FGA to connect and equip. He discussed the interrelationships between conference attendees, ministry relationships, teaching institutions and so forth. There was no reference of any kind at any point concerning the historical disagreement concerning the content of saving faith matter.
Dr. Moyer's session on sharing the gospel with unbelievers was very good. I was challenged and inspired.
I took a breakout session from Bret Nazworth on how to mobilize your local church to get the gospel out. He made a great point about sharing the gospel as a historical event.
Dr. Lybrand is here and he probably gave a very good break out session on how to invite apostates back to faith. I am sorry to have missed that one!
Dr. Dillow had two sessions in this morning to discuss the narrow way in the Sermon on the Mount. He ended these sessions by sharing his personal life application and a worship song to give us the opportunity to reflect on how each one of us are seeking after His righteousness, which he says seems to be synonymous with the Kingdom of God.
My favorite session was yesterday evening by Dr. Eaton. He did a historical and doctrinal approach of how assurance and the joy of our salvation has always been at the heart of every revival. He challenged free grace people to consider that assurance not only comes from doctrine but also from the Spirit (by which we cry Abba Father).
This is a very basic overview and my memory is certainly selective for my own personal interests and lack of education, but I thought I might share for those who might be interested before the DVDs are available.
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Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. He chose the lowly things of the world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him. (1 cor 1:26,28)
Tuesday, October 05, 2010
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67 comments:
You are right, Fred's breakout session was good!!
John
Wow, I'd like to get your notes.
Today Charlie Bing gave a session from Acts. He said he notices from Acts 20 how Paul's manner was what he was known for before his message - a different approach than "we" often do. I am overwhelmed by the significance of the free grace message when it just means so much in terms of this ethic!!
More to follow....
The FGA executive council voted in to serve the next two years are:
Tom Stegall
Dennis Rokser
Bret Nazworth
Rick Whitmire
John (Crea - spelling?)
Jay Quine & Larry Moyer are rotating off. Bret Nazworth was on the council the last two years and will be serving another term.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Dr. Chay wants prayer for the FGA, weekly. He is asking prayer for unity and wisdom. He is excited about the new website and is looking for contributions from free grace people to post on the site. He would like submissions from both a ministry prospective and an academic perspective.
They also are looking forward to a FGA journal in the future. For a long time they didn't want to enter into that because the GES was providing it, but now they are ready to start doing that.
I should also mention that when I was attending the GES prayer session Bob Wilkin also asked for prayer for unity, particularly healing and reconciliation in the grace movement and with the FGA in particular. It was the first concern that came from his prayer list back in March.
I was fortunate to attend a gospel-sharing demonstration from Kurt Witzig, who is the Youth Pastor at Duluth Bible Church; he has also served and will continue to serve on the candidate selection committee for executive council members of the FGA. He was very open and kind and inviting toward me and I was grateful. He demonstrated the tool Pastor Tom and Pastor Dennis have developed for sharing the gospel; it is a couple of sheets of paper. We did a mock-run and I pretended to be Mormon. By the end of it I felt very affirmed and ministered to by the manner of how he shared the gospel.
I also attended Jeremy Vance's session on "Getting the Gospel Offer Right." I think I missed the first five minutes of the presentation so it's likely I missed something significant. As he went through the variety of offers, his underlines were of one point in each: offering "eternal life" or "going to heaven". That was the glue by which he compared and contrasted, I am assuming? He began by quoting the GES gospel, then also with Charles Ryrie from "So Great A Salvation," and also from John McArthur. But I didn't feel there was any criticism of the GES gospel as he acknowledged it, though he did speak correctively about John McArthur's offer of the gospel. In his summary he said that people must recognize that they are sinners and earlier had quoted Ryrie as distinguished on this matter (he underlined that component in the quotation). I am still unsure if I might be misunderstanding his overall point. He did write in his introduction his opening intent to "read broadly" on the Lordship/Free Grace debate.
If someone has his email address I'd like to have it so I can ask some follow-up questions. Don't take my assessment too closely, because I have to admit that I both liked and was a little unsure what it was I was supposed to hear.
"The FGA executive council voted in to serve the next two years are:
Tom Stegall
Dennis Rokser
Bret Nazworth
Rick Whitmire
John (Crea - spelling?)
Jay Quine & Larry Moyer are rotating off. Bret Nazworth was on the council the last two years and will be serving another term.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil."
?????????
Michele, what kind of Kool-Aid have they got you drinking out there? Please tell me you're kidding.
:)
Gary
I loved every session and was inspired and challenged deeply. There were very rarely any reference or acknowledgement of the disagreement inside free grace. Sam Sacco was a great emcee over the span of the three days, and I hear he gave a great session on the fundamentals of free grace theology. His session was monopolized by a Calvinist who wanted to debate Calvinism, I was told by my best friend who attended. He said at the opening of the conference (I paraphrase), Time to get out of the dissecting arena, time to go declare it. Not just sit here and talk about it year after year.
Dr. Larry Moyer gave an inspiring session on buying up the time to live around unsaved people. He wants Christians to be salt to a dying world by "learning how to hold your tongue and learning how to use your tongue." Out of all the sessions I attended, his comment, very briefly made about half way through, was the most upsetting to me. He said the gospel contains both grace and truth and how for some the gospel has become something different. He quoted an unknown person as saying "Jesus never called anyone a sinner," and gave an apology against that position. His tone was an attitude of tragedy that this comment had arisen from within our own movement.
Dr. Michael Eaton called free grace teachers to minister grace both to one another and also to Calvinists and Lutherans, and he used doctrine and church history to powerfully persuade in truth why that grace was most deserving.
Dr. Dave Anderson said during his session with a little gusto, (I paraphrase), I don't want to preach the minimum gospel, I want to preach the maximum gospel, and he did so from Hebrews chapter one.
The session that most impressed me was Dr. Eaton's, and the person who most impressed me was Pastor Kurt Witzig. I hope to have future conversation with both these individuals.
Hi Gary, this is on my mind. Emperor Nero was a most irrational and ruthless king when Paul wrote Romans 13.
I'm not saying I do not have emotions coursing through me. As a woman I feel a responsibility to respect unconditionally by position firstly, not by performance alone.
I would love to give more respect for those I honestly do, however. :D Am I approaching or abandoning sense? I need you brother. Tell me straight.
Do you mean the FGA Executive Council now "bears the sword" against evildoers, egregious (GES) heretics and such? (Rom 13:4) Do we owe them back taxes too? (Rom 13:6,7)
:D
Gary
I'm SO GLAD you have a sense of humor, ahhh. :D
:-F
Last month Dr. Chay recommended in a mass email that we bring a friend to the conference this year, and once I read that I couldn't get the sound of it from my thoughts. My best friend in the gospel said yes. She made it despite all kinds of trouble because God made the way for her to come along. She is the LORD's "canary in a coal mine." And let me tell you - she's heard LIFE - in the last few days. Another person who I left out of my "most inspiring" list was Charlie Bing and his wife Karen. He and she gave my friend a cup of cold water from the start to the finish of our stay. Their hospitality was so wonderful and I'm so grateful. My friend had never heard of FGT before she came, she's only been a believer for perhaps a year and a half? She bought "Simply by Grace" by Charlie and begged one of the women in our neighborhood to read it, a woman plagued by assurance issues but one who hates reading. That was at 9 a.m. this morning. An hour ago she called me and I could tell she was floored like I became, that this woman had already read to pg. 40 in his book. My friend has also read half of Fred Lybrand's book called "Glaen" on the plane ride home and is burdened to share it with three people. She was sharing God's truth with another woman early this morning and she said, "when I was talking to her God's truth came spilling out of my mouth and I was astounded, I know it wasn't me talking." Then she proceeded to do the same to me concerning the grace of God! :) She hears what I hear when I go to free grace conferences. We both hear our very life, the very beating of our heart, those things which were passionate and subconscious, come alive and be given names and concepts and confirmation and commission.
Charlie and my friend made this is one of the best conferences I've had. I'm so thankful that we've had this opportunity to be filled up with God's truth and His Spirit too.
Michele, I do appreciate your desire to give respect and honor to whom it is due. That is a responsibility we all have whether we are a man or woman. But the passage you have cited from Rom 13 is specifically referring to civil or governmental authority. Neither the FGA Executive Council nor the GES Executive Council has the kind of general authority over believers Paul is referring to. Of course, there are some (e.g. the Pope, Jim Jones, etc) who think (or have thought) they have this kind of authority over believers, yet in reality have NO God-given authority over ANY believer.
You are right to respect those at the FGA conference, but they have no God-given authority over you, so RELAX. I'm sure some of the things they are teaching are good things.
By the way, Zane believed in preaching the "maximum gospel" too. He would have given a hearty "amen" to Dave Anderson's statement. Oh, but I forgot, Zane would not have been welcome there unless he had repented of his "egregious heresy". Neither would I or many other people who love Jesus Christ and the FG message.. Oh well, so much for the FGA's mission statement to "connect, encourage, and equip the body of Christ to advance the grace message throughout the world."
Yes, I still have a little sense of humor..but it's hard sometimes. I'm still not there yet.
:)
Gary
My flight down was delayed so I missed hearing Fred Chay, the first workshop, and half of Larry Moyer's message. Oh well.
It certainly was good seeing smiling faces from the GES bunch. I put "GES" on my name tag because I have spent more time doing GES work than any other ministry this year. (I asked Bob W.'s permission first). I would love to go into detail, but I was shocked at people's reaction. Most shocking was the number of people I talked to who did not know what GES was. Most did. The silence about anything having to do with Zane and GES at the conference was deafening. I fear the only information many of these people get about GES is the "approved" spin. They are not getting the truth. I handed out about 12 of my papers, "Did Zane and GES changed the Gospel? NO!" Michelle got a copy too. My prayer is that it will promote reconciliation. FGA leadership has communicated to me that they have no intent on apologizing or reconciling. They want to "go their separate ways," period.
I was impressed by something not so theological. At the 2009 and 2010 GES conference most of the people were happy, smiling and I sensed a great spirit of unity. At the 2010 FGA conference, I did NOT sense a spirit of unity at all. I sensed a spirit of disunity. I noticed two categories of people, the "GES friendlies" and the "anti-GES" people. Most of the "anti-GES" people, did not seem very happy, many had frowns on their faces most of the time. Please note. Most of the folks at FGA are most definitely NOT anti-GES and expressed interest in FGA and GES getting along. Very subjective. . . feelings based, I know. But I picked up the feeling very clearly between the two types of people.
My two cents. . .
Don Reiher
Hate to double post. . .
The problem I have with FGA people who do criticize Zane & GES is not the actual criticism. It is HOW they do it. It is usually done with a snide attitude.
I actually had a conversation with Fred Lybrand. I think his reponse to my response to his "open letter" seemed inflammatory to me. He never seems to mince words and says what he feels, but he was gracious with me on Tuesday. We sort of disagreed agreeably and he did NOT do it with an attitude. As he walked out the door he assured me he would read my paper. I said to myself, oh boy. . . what is he going to post on his website about me this time. Time will tell! I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that is what Jesus did. We need to love these guys back to the GES fold.
- Don
- Don
Dear Friends,
Are you aware of FGA Gospel Statement on their website? Here is what it says...
After much discussion and reflection, the FGA Executive Council has concluded that in the light of misunderstandings in our broader Christian community, it is important for us to issue the following statement:
The Free Grace Alliance is not associated with the Grace Evangelical Society and does not endorse the GES Gospel (also referred to as “crossless” or “promise only” by some). We invite those who share our heart for the Gospel's clarity and declaration, of both the Person and Work of Christ, to join hands with us.*
I love GES (Grace Evangelical Society) and thank God for them because of their wonderful Bible teaching. They let the scriptures alone speak. That's what I appreciate about them more than anything else. My prayers are with them. May God continue to be glorified through them.
In His love,
Diane
I pulled this from Dr. Stephen Lewis' facebook status for praise,
News update concerning Dr. Radmacher. He wanted me to send a very special thank you to everyone who prayed for him and for Ruth. He was released from the hospital yesterday afternoon. He is doing well. The surgery was very painful and he is sore because of it. Please continue to pray for his recovery and for regaining his strength. We pray that this will add many more years to his life and ministry. Thanks!
Hi Gary, glad you've been helping me think this through, sorry I've been absent. I appreciate your comments, both and I'm thinking them through.
Hi Don,
I'm glad you have been diligent to present Zane's writings with a historical and theological context for those who are still attempting to understand what ground we have in common. It means a lot to a lot of people and I'm one.
Most shocking was the number of people I talked to who did not know what GES was.
Most people don't know what the FGA is either.
FGA leadership has communicated to me that they have no intent on apologizing or reconciling.
I am sorry to hear that. I'm not sure that everyone feels that way though you are correct some do. There was one person who was very interested to compare and contrast and ask me my opinion on their gospel message.
I hear you when you said,
The silence about anything having to do with Zane and GES at the conference was deafening.
Let me share a true story.
There is this woman who I have shared the gospel with in the last year and a half and she's become a bible-following believer (somehow God is good to let me be a part of her journey, God is so cool). She's been living together with a man as unmarried for seven years. Their fighting has been really, really bad and this man just doesn't seem to grasp what she is trying to tell him and neither does she understand him. She calls me on the phone for the last several months saying, "See what I have to put up with? Today he said these things. Is that what God wants for me? And you're telling me God wants me to get married and stay with this man?" Then, two months ago, something interesting developed. She won the lottery for state housing. They promised her that though things would be a little more financially tight, she could move into this brand new apartment and go on state welfare to pay for a good deal of it. So things changed in her heart; no matter what went good or bad as usual with her significant other, it suddenly didn't matter any more. She had the opportunity to get away from it all and support herself, and she couldn't just let the opportunity slip away. So, that's what she did. She just told him, that she was leaving. For a week she processed moving her stuff over, trying to be generous and kind and leave half or more for him. He became incredibly hurt and didn't really have a place to live anymore either so he told her to take all the belongings. So she did.
She had fun arranging her furniture in her new space, arranging all the new details and she especially loved how there was no more fear of fighting with her significant other, anymore. The first few days felt fantastic.
But after that first week, the silence was suddenly feeling much different. It was unbearable. She's lost her appetite, and her stomach turns. She literally has nothing to do but sit in front of the tv all day long and rock in her chair. There is no one to share the moments of life with anymore. There is no one to lend her a second hand with the two little kids. And she cries and cries, angling her head sometimes out one of the windows which gives her the slightest vantage on the path she knows he walks to and from work each day.
He came over at three o'clock in the morning, drunk, with tears crying, she told me. He said, "Why, did you do this? We had everything together. You knew what a miracle it was that we found that house together. It had a big back yard where I knew you could finally plant that garden you've always wanted. Our kids could play, we had so much space. We had it all.. why?"
She just cried and said "I know. I made a mistake. It's the biggest one I ever made."
He doesn't come around as much, and he says she's on her own. She's so sad. She tells me she learned her lesson, even though it's too late now. In her pride she gets over it from time to time, telling me her new big plans now that life doesn't include him anymore. But when the sun goes down, that's when the grief is undeniable.
I share that because I'm not afraid to say it out loud. What I have seen happen hurts me, really bad. I can't help but feel the pain as a bystander. It's plain as pie GES people are crying out for agape love, and so are FGA people too. How can anyone not admit as much.
Hi Don,
I actually had a conversation with Fred Lybrand. I think his reponse to my response to his "open letter" seemed inflammatory to me. He never seems to mince words and says what he feels, but he was gracious with me on Tuesday. We sort of disagreed agreeably and he did NOT do it with an attitude. As he walked out the door he assured me he would read my paper. I said to myself, oh boy. . . what is he going to post on his website about me this time. Time will tell! I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that is what Jesus did. We need to love these guys back to the GES fold.
That sounds excellent to me. That is one person I really missed out on connecting with. Fred has quit the pastoral ministry to write full time, and a lot of what is on his heart is personifying wisdom in relationships, and training, and forming, and mentoring. It's getting clearer and clearer to me, since the time I spent two years ago that this is what he is gifted in. I heard him saying publicly about himself this conference, "I don't like controversy." That made a lot of things fall into place historically. He is so laid back, he reminds me of the karate kid movie where the boy learns in the shinto temple the power of presence through stillness. He is nice, supportive and fatherly, and I wonder if he isn't trusting God for people who are willing to be molded than try and speak where unruliness is already in motion.
Just a thought.
Sometimes we see some kind of something that seems evil, and then we get a little closer and realize it isn't evil, it's just a weakness yet they are strong in other sorts of functions; and what is a weakness we realize when we get still a little closer is a statement of man's general imperfection and need for a redemptive Savior, and a little closer beyond that we realize that while there are individual varieties, every believer is flawed and marred and therefore equal in needing God's work in our life.
I'd encourage anyone to attend a FG conference and meet our leaders, speakers and writers. Paul had to deal with some disputes over whether they understood him cohesively by presence and by written letter, but Paul wrote letters when he was far away because he knew that while presence was most satisfying, the pen is a fair medium to remind and teach others, able to transmit God's Spirit to the reader.
Hi Diane,
Yes, that was certainly a moment that will affect FG relationships in a big way. Can you tell me/will you tell me why you quoted this?
Thanks for sharing your heart,
Michele
Michele,
I'm glad you are trying to think this through further. Here's a little more food for thought.
Don Reiher said: "FGA leadership has communicated to me that they have no intent on apologizing or reconciling."
You said to Don: "I am sorry to hear that I'm not sure that everyone feels that way though you are correct some do."
So, who are the "some" who feel that way? Is it not the FGA Executive Council that Diane quoted from their own website?
FGA Gospel Statement: " After much discussion and reflection, the FGA Executive Council has concluded that in the light of misunderstandings in our broader Christian community, it is important for us to issue the following statement: The Free Grace Alliance is not associated with the Grace Evangelical Society and does not endorse the GES Gospel (also referred to as “crossless” or “promise only” by some). We invite those who share our heart for the Gospel's clarity and declaration, of both the Person and Work of Christ, to join hands with us.*
Please note that this statement is the "conclusion" of the FGA Executive Council and they are responsible for posting it on the official website of the FGA. Yet you said:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil."
Michele, I'm not speaking for Diane, but it seems to me that it's not her that needs to explain why she posted the FGA Gospel Statement, but you who needs to explain why you seem to be implying that the FGA Executive Counsel are "governing authorities" and any believer who "resists" them "will bring judgement on themselves". As the next verse in that passage says: ""For he (the "governing authority") is God's minister to you for good. but if you do evil, be afraid..." Rom. 13:4
So, are you not implying that any who do not submit to the Duluthian Antagonists (Tom Stegall, Dennis Rokser, et al) should be "AFRAID"?
If that's not what you mean, then what DO you mean in quoting the passage from Rom 13: 1-3 in the context of informing us about the newly elected members of the FGA Executive Council ?
As I said, I'm NOT speaking for Diane, but why should she need to explain herself? Isn't the relevance of the FGA Gospel Statement to your comment obvious enough? So, I'd like to make the same request of you that you made to Diane: "Can you tell me/will you tell me why you quoted this (Rom 13:1-3)?
IOW--back to my original question: Are you drinking the Kool-Aid of the Duluthian Antagonists?
Thanks for sharing your heart,
Gary
Hi Gary, I'm so glad you asked these questions. I want to apologize for not making my intentions more clear, I shouldn't have left a comment hanging like that. What I am interested in exploring is drawing the lines of interaction differently than how they've usually been drawn, which so far is only by the COSF (content of of saving faith) matter. If it turns out I'm the only one interested in looking at other ways besides COSF to look at this, then that's okay, I concur COSF is a critical factor to keep before us. I was hoping Diane would share more thoughts or feelings to inform how to look at this discord in another way.
Let me explain why I brought up authority, if I might, and why it makes this issue more complex and more agreeable even to Diane and you too.
You said,
By the way, Zane believed in preaching the "maximum gospel" too. He would have given a hearty "amen" to Dave Anderson's statement. Oh, but I forgot, Zane would not have been welcome there unless he had repented of his "egregious heresy".
...and I'm right there in my heart too, that is the heart of why I'm looking at other ways to notice our mutuality. Let me write a bit on that in the next comment?
Michele
Hi Gary,
So tell me what you think I should translate from Romans 13 "afraid"? The word is "phobeo" which I'm wondering if you would verify or not, is the same root word "fear" in 1 Pet 3:2, "phobos"? Here is what wives are commanded in that verse...
"While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear...."
I don't think Peter is commanding that wives allow their hearts to be terrorized by their husband's rule, and I think you know now that I would like to apply the same sort of thought to the word applied to authority of any kind anywhere as Romans 13 discusses. Reverence and respect and submission is not a popular concept in American culture; we value independence and cherish the accomplishments of the rebel - and I'm made of the same stuff as well, naturally.
I think all passages like these are saying is that respect is just as valuable and just as necessary as love, toward God, people, or whatever. I don't know how much the "Alliance" means to the LORD, if at all, because He doesn't hold organizations responsible at judgment; He holds individuals responsible at judgment.
I am thinking not specifically an authority "over me." I'm thinking broadly about where authority comes from. It comes "in Christ." Just the fact that these positions exist is a sign of God's hand upon the theology of FG whole. There was enough of God's integrity in the movement against Lordship Salvation that free grace people of any kind are blessed in their ministry to it.
The message of God's grace is the message that comes with God's power! The truth is, Pastor Nazworth's church is reaching the lost people in their area. Duluth preached the gospel to 1200 people at local fairs (last year if memory serves). That means something to me. Does it mean something to you? Having seen for myself the model used to preach, it is being spread and utilized out from Duluth to other congregations with a lot of success in explaining the gospel to open the eyes of understanding to the lost.
FGA leadership are the ones who think there is significant difference between GES and FGA - and have done a lot of tearing being so convicted. Beside COSF, what else is there to differ on? I can't think of any other thing, in theology or practice, that distinguishes an FGA member from a GES member--not one. Can you? In fact I'm not persuaded that there is a distinguishing feature of difference in the COSF as well. Perhaps there really is something in terms of nuance or order of sharing the gospel with the lost... A nuance for the theologically savvy? I'm still not convinced... these things are still being written up in journals as we speak. At least on a practical level, no lost person is receiving any information different or left out. Practically then, FGA and GES are entirely indistinguishable. And if you disagree, that's good! I'm open to looking some more at that.
Isn't the practical where it counts in the LORD's eyes? I'm thinking about the epistle of James. Doesn't the Spirit move each one of us to share the gospel as fully as possible? Yes. Then how important is a theological debate. God's wonders are equal toward all of us who couple His commission with personal faith. What's more, I've heard of individuals who have not yet been saved, preach the gospel to dozens of people and see them be saved before they ever were themselves. God can use whatever He wants, can't He? Even back-biters can bring the lost to Christ though the numbers are probably lessened.
If I was wrong, and I could have been, then what about my young-disciple friend? I stood back and didn't direct her to feel one way or another about what she heard and saw. What do you think she saw? At this point I'm aware of four people who are interested in coming with me next to the GES conference, and if they come what do you think they will see? I'm no prognosticator, but I bet they'll feel exactly the same thing; how do I know? Because it happened to me while I was there. We're all hearing the same stuff. We're sharing the same speakers in the present tense. GES has to share Zane with the FGA. Try and imagine a Free Grace gospel without using any of Zane's teachings or the influence toward those teachings. Free Grace is one, even though it currently has been torn outwardly into two.
What do you think? Sorry that was really long and laborious to read.
Setting aside people who've influenced us, I know that His power and authority lies in the Truth. The same source blesses both, because God cares about this world having assurance, and the secondary, fruit of godliness by committed discipleship. Our theological life doesn't get much sweeter than this.
So what's left. We have bitterness and pain, and hard-heartedness. Back-biting and pride. The FGA thinks the GES is deceived into a theologically-licentious gospel; and the GES thinks the FGA has become deceived into a pharisaical gospel. And I think it's all okay. They've shown that volatility is not the sign of unhealthiness they once thought. It's actually the relationships where there is the same level of disagreement however not a lot of expression that are the more unhealthy sort. And we're all learning how to be Godly, so in every way we may see God's glory.
As Dr. Eaton pointed out on Monday evening, we do things to damage one another, but God's word retains its fullest potential. Paul wrote:
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
There are those reading who are absolutely certain that the FGA or GES are totally lost concerning discord or the COSF. No matter your view, grace has the power to change minds and hearts. It won't happen overnight, and for some it won't happen at all. We don't give undeserved kindness, respect, or love because we expect payment in return. Giving grace to the elect is really giving unto the LORD. Sarah respected Abraham; a man connected to the source of God, but in particular moments, a despicable sinner.
What does Diane think?
Gary, I do not think that FG people should submit more to the authority of the FGA any more than they should submit to the authority of the GES. The GES and FGA are equals, whatever they are worth. I wish to bow wherever I see God's work. Please tell me if I've become much more clear now?
Michele,
You said: "Gary, I do not think that FG people should submit more to the authority of the FGA any more than they should submit to the authority of the GES"
__________________________
That's right, because NEITHER of them has ANY authority that God requires us to submit to--zero, zilch, nil. But I've already said that haven't I? And I've also said that we should give honor and respect to whom it is due.
I think we are already starting to go in a circle with this discussion.
But at least now I know you meant what I thought you meant by your use of Rom 13:1-3-- that anyone who resists and doesn't submit and bow to the "authority" of FGA Executive Council is bringing upon themselves the judgment and wrath of God.
I've never heard anyone make such a claim about the "authority" of the GES though.
All authority is grounded in Jesus Christ and the authority of His word.
That's why I comepletely agree with Diane's statement about the GES and strongly DISAGREE with the malicious and derogatory statement that the FGA Executive Council has posted on their official website for all the world to see--even MORE reason why they have no rightful claim to "authority" over any believer.
Well... if the verse is inappropriate, then it's inappropriate. I'll think about it some more. I wanted a verse to support general respect for the work of God, wherever it can be found. I still love you and I'm sorry if I touched on something really raw (and I know it is).
Well, I'm not sure what to make of the dichotomous impressions that Michele and Don Reiher received at the conference. And although I'm not too sure how much of a "dog I have in this hunt," I have to say that I must agree with Gary and Diane's responses to the posting on the FGA website.
And I guess I'm a little confused about the Romans 13 post as well. I just don't see where submission is in any way relevant to that particular context.
Finally, I guess I'm having trouble reconciling how so many avowed separationists were admitted to the FGA council while Dr. Chay is also appealing for more inclusiveness in FGA. That would only seem to me to aggravate the existing divide. Michele, did you see something different from the extreme separationism we have witnessed so recently?
Michele,
You're right, you just happened to pick a bad passage to make your point--something we all do from time to time. I think I understand the spirit of what you are trying to say, though, and I agree with you. Yep, it hit a nerve alright--but you know I can't help but love you. :)
Hi Jim...thanks for the good thoughts. Hope you are recovering well from your accident and get back in the saddle soon. Maybe by God's grace we will get all this worked out someday--at least some of it anyway. :)
Gary
p.s.--but it's the FGA "Gospel Statement" that hits the nerve mostly. I've just never understood why they can't just go there separate way in peace like they claim to want to do. Instead, they continue to perpetuate the fight they started. I've never seen any statements against them on the GES website. Go figure.
Thanks for your unconditional hope in me Gary :)
I've never seen any statements against them on the GES website. Go figure.
Most everybody is interested in the truth concerning COSF, and after that most people are concerned with secondary separationists and their approach to "resolving" theological disagreement. As you're saying, it's not fair. Does it need be? Admittedly I'm not good at this, I only seem to be able to take one step at a time, and sharing my thoughts in this thread is pitiful for sure, but it's a start. You said,
The FGA executive council voted in to serve the next two years are:
Tom Stegall
Dennis Rokser
Bret Nazworth
Rick Whitmire
Need I say more?
I know. Remember too I had comments on the disassociation here at that time.
Isn't this the perfect moment to humbly and lovingly serve them? Are they ever to be the least hungry, and least expecting than they are right now?
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. rom 5:8
What am I waiting for? Christ didn't wait. I don't have to wait for a secondary separationist to change his mind before I serve him. I don't have to wait for an FGA leader to understand what Zane was teaching before I treat him better than I do myself. Christ gave it all, when there was no "good" reason to. And by that love He built the church - in fact this is the very heart of the gospel.
It's not a reflection of what sinful man has or has not done. Forget about "the other guy." It's the integrity given to us by our Father to use our life as a ransom, to give our life away for the sake of others.
What are some practical things I can do today to show Christ's love to someone who feels in all context like a betrayer? I've both been a betrayer and been betrayed myself. Grace is more interesting than sin and judgment.
May I share another story?
Tonight in our church we had a missions report from Ecuador. Four here joined Steve Saint to minister among the Waodani tribe in the jungle. As our missionaries gave the report and shared their photographs, he tipped us early on that he had a favorite among all the photos from the trip. Steve and Mincaye, the man who murdered his father, had not seen each other in a year and a half. The photograph was of Steve who had his arm around Mincaye's shoulders as they walked into the jungle. This was his favorite photo. It reminds him of the love that started the entire mission and led to its success in spreading the gospel.
If you remember the story, 5 husbands were murdered, and two wives did not harbor hate but went to dwell amongst their enemies. Rachel lived with them for 34 years and in that time, translated the Bible into their language. This kind of love is impossible, and it only comes one step at a time. I wonder if Steve had to forgive in his heart over and over for a long time.
Something was truly lost, when they posted that announcement. And what was lost will never be gained back. But there are ways in which God will use this for our good in the days ahead, and His glory. We have to open our hearts to the wonder of His power.
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying we all could use a good dose of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2lgVpwqD1c&feature=player_embedded
Hi Gary, that was quite beautiful. :) Yes :D
Closest thing to an angel I've ever heard.
1. God will Lead
2. God is One
3. God is Marvelous
Too often I base my decisions on the merit of circumstances, instead of the virtue of Christ.
Here is a question that one must eternally inquire of onesself.
Where does your allegiance lie?
Does your allegiance go to Jesus... or to Jesus-based activities?
John 10:16 "and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."
As for now there are two flocks, and two shepherds. That's because of man. True, we may never see God's desire fully accomplished. Right now God is preparing many to be increasingly open to the work He will accomplish. The LORD is mighty in our faith.
Brothers and sisters,
That testing question, "Where does your allegiance lie?" is as much for me as anyone. I think I know how God is going to move, but I'm wrong. What is happening is the work of God, though I do not know what the plan entails. No one knows for sure how the LORD is going to do what He wills. But we know He will do it.
I believe that when the circumstances are "discouraging" that means there is something the LORD wants to do, and wants to reveal. He wants to teach me patience, and faith, and humility. And He wants to open my eyes to a wider, more comprehensive view of His will.
He'll continue to cause disillusionment in my ideas of what is supposed to happen until I am reliably coming to Him personally and asking Him to explain what He is doing. I have to lay down my understandings and take up a fresh look that He gives through prayer. That freshness will bring me new life and new hope where the "issue" (COSF) no longer brings me life at this time, largely hopelessness.
The reason why I write is because of the amazing opportunity we have in Christ. Each one of us share in this privilege to work together in Him. I am amazed that God uses people's words, their actions, and the pen, to change the world - that, and the #1 book in print over the globe - the Bible. This is the stuff He uses. He chooses to use verses, He chooses to use people, to advance His kingdom. You know, I was really impacted recently sharing a bunch of tracts I got at the conference. Perhaps you'd recognize the sensation? You're sitting there, and God is telling you to get up and give someone the tract, and you hesitate. I did. I asked God, "Why do I have to get up, now? Can't you send someone else on another day? Don't they already know the truth and can't I just pray that they will inwardly click in to faith with what they know?" But it isn't God's best, is it?
Have I ever mentioned how much I despise public speaking? It makes me physically ill. It's true. So on the one hand I don't want to speak, and God says, "Obey." But on the other, what a privilege it is to declare Him. To be a mouthpiece, that would ever influence anyone. And that is why I write a blog, and go to conferences. Not because I'm cool. Consider how I'm not writing anything new to anyone. The pen is meant to revive and that is all this is to me. I go because I am convinced that presence matters, and words matter, and love matters. You too make a huge impact because God made our opportunity in Christ characterized by privilege.
Good shepherds take away stress of the sheep and establish people in righteousness. If you wonder what significance it makes to love someone who doesn't deserve it, or hold your tongue when you've been betrayed, know that you are settling people to draw ever closer to the only One who calls things that do not exist as though they did.
In prayer, God will set us free from things we never knew we were bound to. Each person has a God-given deep conviction of God's mind upon which we can stand and remind each other. Things we haven't even considered, yet? Issues of godliness, abundant life, love, the power of God and more. Imagine this symphony of free grace people creating a new culture, a new environment, a new context, a greater presence of the Kingdom among us. This atmosphere will give relief to the handful who are truly one-trick ponies, if there are any left at all. My love and grace is not wasted on the one I presume is "hard-hearted." This new atmosphere, generated by many committed disciples, creates a grander God-awareness, and will bring abundantly clear light to the doctrine of the COSF and the men who are best to be leading us.
Who knows what time will reveal? What men intend for evil God weaves as part of the story; the lessons learned.
Am I willing... to allow the LORD to open my eyes? That's a most critical question, I think. What if I see things I never saw before? What if it makes me think differently about my brother than I had been? What if it makes me think newly about the correct doctrine of the COSF? Will I be risky, like that? Because I love Jesus and His truth and grace. Yes, I love grace and mercy more than judgment. And I love Truth more than I love my own understanding.
I notice each one of you participating in new ways in Christ, deeper ways. God is leading us. Please, keep talking. Keep writing. Keep speaking. Keep serving. Keep loving. He promises to be glorified!
Hi Michele,
I enjoyed your post and all the comments. I'm a little stumped at Don's mention of my 'snippiness' and his concern about what I might write about him 'this time'---I don't know where any of this is on the web or in personal correspondence...but I would be glad to apologize.
Of course, I can be snippy, so he easily could be right.
I regreted not seeing you a bit more...seemed we kept passing in the whirlwind without stopping.
I see a number of questions about GES and FGA and I spent a good bit of time with Jody (and others) discussing the relationship. I would be glad to answer some questions here if you'd like to set that up.
Unity is of great value, but I don't see a path for that to happen. I think Gary's point about 'leaving each other alone' is probably right. I can tell you that GES virtually never came up in our two board meetings (before and after the conference).
I was surprise to read that Bob has apologized and is praying for the FGA. I'm positive he hasn't contacted any of the leaders in the FGA about such matters.
At any rate, it was really good to see you and meet you friend (Wendy I think).
God bless,
Fred Lybrand
P.S. Your analysis of me was touching and accurate...thanks much!
Hi Fred,
You said, "P.S. Your analysis of me was touching and accurate...thanks much!"
Oh phew, I'm glad it is! :D
Well, I think that would be fantastic. I think it is very important to hear what you are saying, so whatever might come out of some further conversation I hope to chew on in the months to come. I want to hear everything as you are trying to communicate it.
Could you talk a bit on the premonition/prediction concerning the "GES gospel." I think it's absolutely valid to hold your ground on 1 Cor 15, or even as you sort of debut-ed, 1 Cor. 1's "Christ crucified" in your open letter as additional grounds for dogged disagreement. But what is it exactly that makes their gospel an access point for universalism, if you still believe this? From where do you get that sensation? Can you paint a picture, because I don't see that and I want to.
If you can paint that picture or at least send me in the right direction (in the case that we're just reviewing old info about the COSF from context of scripture), perhaps I would understand the sort of "not associated" that is being experienced. I would guess that most people outside the FGA do not see why they should react so strongly as some in the FGA have.
I'm very thankful that you've been around for people to ask their questions.
Michele,
It may be easier to make this a separate entry so comments don't get lost / mixed in with other things. Of course, I'll defer to you.
In looking through your questions, I would begin with my understanding that the Gospel Preached and the Gospel One Must Believe are two different things in the mind of Bob Wilkin (and other GESers).
This is why I don't believe (nor have ever said) Bob is a heretic. Again, I really don't want to fight, but I am willing to reason together.
Bob would certainly insist on preaching a 'full' gospel (not meaning our charismatic friends' view here). However, he would not say that that same message preached (including the cross, etc.) is necessary to believe in order to be justified.
I certainly would not say believing the cross is all that is necessary, but I do believe it is a part of what must be believed in order to be saved.
So...how do you want to pursue this?
God bless,
Fred Lybrand
www.backtofaith.com
Hi Fred,
Okay. I will start a new post for conversation. I am grateful. Why do this? As I was saying before, I would just jump at a chance to reposition this discussion as frequently as possible, in Jesus Christ. He is a Living God and since He is accomplished, I desire (and not alone in that) to see Him accomplishing "today."
The word "unity" came up. Intentionally I did not use that word. There is no unity in doctrinal disagreement; however, not everything we think and say and experience is contained by this disagreement. I'm simply asking for an opening for Him to show how marvelous He is. It's the journey, not the destination. As we focus on Him, we're inviting His presence, where the change of hearts and minds occur. I am confident that God is in the business of blowing our minds. In order to see Him accomplish something today, the saints' vision ought be able to distinguish what we already enjoy as God's kindness to us. It begins with gratitude, love, respect.
How does it sound to share a moment thanking God for what we can as the conversation starts??
Thanks so very much. I'm glad to spend the time with you.
Hi Gary,
I tried to find another scripture after this one to discuss respect, but I'm thinking after this I'm going to get into more mischief, so I won't. You were so right, Romans 13 was so wrong. I'm glad you were there to check my temperature so to speak - thanks brother. I do not want to do this alone by any means. Antonio is raising the bar in his example and Don also requested that we raise the bar, meaning talking to one another, and about one another, with more respect. I want to keep the line with them and you.
I'm eager to set it higher for myself. I remember Charlie was asking for more respect on the blogs two years ago. I've made some poor judgments in the past concerning speech and I trust that the LORD does help. I'm not sure if I've admitted failure of times gone by? It is good to confess sins to one another.
Respect is a great starting place. The relationship at large is complicated and there are some critical matters requiring attention. I don't set them aside, but I wanted to go about layering this in a fresh sort of ordering.
How far do I need to go before I get back to 98.6 degrees F.? If I'm not there yet, thanks ahead of time for bearing with me as you always do.
<3 :D
I've made some poor judgments too Michele.
Now, I'd say you're right on the button at 98.6.
:D
Sounds fine.
Fred
Hey Fred,
Apology Accepted.
- Don Reiher
Hey Don,
I actually haven't apologized to you yet (though I would really love to do so). I don't know what I did (nor where I did it). Where was I inflammatory, as you said of me, "I think his response to my response to his "open letter" seemed inflammatory to me?" What were the words in print that were hurtful to you? If I can see what I said to you, perhaps the Lord will give me the grace to see your view...so I can, indeed, apologize.
I also see you mentioned that FGA Leadership is unwilling to reconcile or apologize. Apologizing would be great, but again, it needs content. No one has ever come to our leadership and expressed in what ways we have 'sinned' against GES. Nor has Bob apologized to the FGA (though I hear he did it in public at the conference) Reconciling would be fine, but we haven't split from each other...we were never joined. We formed the FGA with a particular purpose in mind (distinct from GES). GES never joined the FGA (in fact, Bob and Zane both wrote and said that they don't agree with our doctrinal statement). There is nothing to reconcile (as far as I can see) because there was never a split.
All I know for sure is that the Exec. Council (FGA) put a statement out to make it clear that GES and FGA were not the same group (especially in each one's understanding of the gospel).
I'd be glad to correspond or talk by phone. Here's my email: fredlybrand@yahoo.com
God bless,
Fred Lybrand
Don,
Hi Michele, and Hi everyone.
Jim was spot on when he wrote this:
-----
Finally, I guess I'm having trouble reconciling how so many avowed separationists were admitted to the FGA council while Dr. Chay is also appealing for more inclusiveness in FGA. That would only seem to me to aggravate the existing divide.
-----
I hope for the FGA's sake that this won't be a case of "give them enough rope". I believe in the mission of the FGA, were it not for the fact that they are intentionally on unintentionally stigmatizing and separating out a large segment of the Free Grace world with their very public pronouncements.
Hey Don, I got the GES journal and read with great enthusiasm both your article and Bob's. Great stuff!!!
your free grace brother,
Antonio
Hi Don,
I, too, have been reading your article in the GES Journal and agree that it is EXCELLENT~!!!
I also appreciate Bob's article~!!!
Both are SUPER EXCELLENT~!!!
:-)
Diane
P.S. Thanks Michele for giving us the opportunity to comment. You have such a BIG heart~!!!
:-)
I thoroughly enjoyed those two articles in the GES Journal as well. As Bob and Don show so clearly, "the emperor has no clothes!" Oops!
I also was encouraged by this statement by Dr Charlie Bing (one of the principal founders and leaders of the FGA) on the home page of his website "GraceLife":
"The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is God the Son who came to die for the sins of every person, and rose from the grave in victory over death. Any person who SIMPLY AND ONLY BELIEVES IN GOD'S PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE will receive that life as a free gift. Salvation cannot be earned or merited in any way. It is the privilege of every believer to have assurance of salvation based on God's promise." (emphasis mine)
Isn't this what the GES has been faithfully teaching for the past 20 years?
Well said Dr. Bing!
But what about the FGA "Gospel Statement"?
Oops again!
The salvation message that Jesus, and Paul gave after Jesus resurrection was more than just being saved from eternal condemnation (see and compare-->John 3:16-18 vrs. Mark 16:15-20, notice the emphasis in vrs. 16b is on believing; Luke 24:44-49; Matt 28:18-20), but included discipleship salvation, and were all written in context's concerning discipleship either instruction on making disciples or to disciples who already had everlasting life (see-->Mark 16:16; 1 Cor 1:18-21;15:1-8; 1 Peter 3:21). Paul used himself as an example for giving the gospel message (see-->1 Tim 1:15,16). Paul knew that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, so the cross (eighth sign of the Gospel of John 2:18-21; 20:9,29) was the natural context Paul used to prove that Jesus was the Christ the giver of everlasting life (John 11:25-27 Resurrection and the Life).
But, the Gospel of John is the ONLY book written in the Bible to the unbeliever how he or she cannot be eternally condemned by having life in Jesus name, by simply believing His promise (see-->John 1:12; 3:16-18,36; 4:10,13-14,26; 5:24; 6:26-29,47; 11:25-27; 20:31). This truth is confirmed later in a verse such as Rev 22:17, the living water is the same living water that Jesus offered to the woman at the well which can be taken freely meaning discipleship salvation is not part of that water, or it would not be a gift you could take freely. So the content of what one must believe in order not to be eternally condemned has not changed, eternal life in Jesus name for the one who believes. And what better context to put it in than the eighth sign Jesus death burial and resurrection. By using the cross as the sign to prove that Jesus is the Christ keeps the content that one MUST believe in order not to be eternally condemned the same content as the woman at the well . . . . .Jesus said: "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink, 'you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
take it freely:)
alvin:)
Check out Bob Wilkin's review of Tom Stegall's "The Gospel of the Christ" (for those who don't have the GES journal):
http://faithalone.org/journal/2010i/1.pdf
Thanks for the tip, Gary!
Hi Gary,
I'm glad you were encouraged by Charlie Bing's gospel, for the reason of their similarity. I also don't know how to "understand the relationship." I carry a tract he wrote. Here is the entire tract, Copyright belongs to GraceLife ministries....
(begin)
"10%? 15%? 20%? What are you worth? Certainly you are worth much more than any tip for your service!
I know someone who thinks you are worth...
100%!
And He has already given it for you. Because God loves you. He gave the life of His own Son, Jesus Christ, to close the distance between you and Him. to erase your sin and guilt, and to give you a new and eternal life.
Jesus' life was much more than a tip. He paid the penalty for your sins when He died on a cross. God's justice is now satisfied and the way is open for you to have a new relationship with Him as your Heavenly Father.
What does God ask you to give in return for this forgiveness, new life, and eternal relationship with Him as Father?
That's right, God asks nothing from you! He offers you the free gift of eternal life which He already paid for with His precious Son, Jesus then rose from the dead to give you this life.
So do you want to know that you
- are forgiven?
- have a new life?
- have an eternal relationship with God?
Then accept God's gift by believing His promise to you in the Bible: For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John chapter 3, verse 16)
Of course, when you receive His gift and want to show your gratitude for your new life, you may want to give God...
100% of your life!
You can do that by discovering and following His will as revealed in the Bible. I suggest you start with the Gospel of John."
So, "how wide the divide?" as they say....
Hi Diane,
Of course you always have the opportunity to comment! :) God's heart is the one that's "big"... scripturally speaking I was burdened with these attributes of God by which to deepen family-values....
1. God will lead
2. God is one (or someone offered to say, God is triune)
3. God is marvelous
any thoughts?
This is the little tract I leave at my favorite restaurant, it's called "the best news you'll ever hear ..." by Zane Hodges and Bob Bryant who are the creators of this little tract which is a real eye-catcher. I also hand it out when I trikke HERE . A lot of people stop me on my trikke and want to know how I make it go. I tell them it's all body motion, and a full body workout. And then I let them ride it, and anyone who rides my trikke gets a tract. I tell them here is something allot better then a trikke it's the free gift of eternal life that Jesus gives. They are usely more than willing to listen to me because they know I just took time out of my day to stop and talk to them and let them ride my trikke. So depending on their response determines how much information I give them. My normal way of giving the free gift of eternal life is in the context of the cross where Jesus paid it ALL:)
I don't just believe the cross is potentially true for the person but actual payment has been made, so the gift is sincerely offered and has been paid in full. They simply have to believe Jesus is telling the truth, and when they do they are reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:11).
I not only believe that Jesus gives eternal life freely but has paid the cost, the cross being effiecint for ALL:) ( John 1:29; 2 Cor 5:19; 1 Tim 2:3-6; 1 John 2:2)
That makes my presentation genuine and powerful~!
I KNOW the price has been paid so the gift is genuine~!
alvin:)
One of the things I remember Dr. R. asking for, in these conversations was... to repeat back to the person who spoke, what they think they've heard. I sure appreciate the willingness to talk, and hopefully someone will pick a comment here and reply back. Antonio, Fred, and Gary have left comments still awaiting reply.
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