I'd prefer to have ten million unkind, unflattering things said about me (that were also true!), out loud for everyone to hear, so that way I could be loved with true grace. True grace, to me, is the kind that knows one's weak points and loves them in spite of them.Visiting Gary's, Tim's and Rose's blog just made my words ring in my ears. Might as well come to learn what my faults are. I won't be able to grow as well as a person just expecting God alone to tell me.
So if you are a friend, what I would like is to have you leave a comment, telling me plainly about a fault of mine. A sin, even, or a weakness. No COSF doctrine issues are game though. Just character, or personal flaws.
Seriously.
Leave a comment.
Now here's a blog post that's interesting for a change. This is so cool, I wonder what took me so long to think about doing this? Well, it's cool... but I know it'll hurt at first.
If you aren't sure if you qualify as friend, the qualification is that you and I have greeted one another pleasantly in the last six months on or offline.
74 comments:
You're goofy, sappy, and sentimental. I'm sorry, but you are.
Now I feel bad. Should I have written "GOOFY" instead? I pro'ly should have. Yeah, now I feel bad.
Heh, heh.
No wonder you stay the heck away from me!
:D
I didn't know you still read here. Cool.
Maio,
Can you be more specific with "GOOFY"?
Wow, this is a little bit hard to do. :( :)
Michele, I think you're far too gracious, and you spell your name wrong. ;)
Seriously, I admire you for your personal fault-seeking, which is something you do consistently.
"Praise be to the name of God forever and ever;
wisdom and power are His.
He changes times and seasons;
He sets up kings and deposes them.
He gives wisdom to the wise
And knowledge to the discerning.
He reveals deep and hidden things;
He knows what lies in darkness,
and light dwells with Him.
I thank and praise You,
O God of my fathers:
You have given me wisdom and power,
You have made known to me what we
asked of You,
You have made known to us the dream
of the King."
Daniel 2:20-23
I like this thread, because I'm thinking and learning new things from the comments and otherwise... interesting! I'll reply later today (or so I plan).
Michele,
Something I've noticed in almost all believers is a tendency to give away trust that should have been earned. We usually end up "casting pearls before swine".
This is all good stuff.... Still will come back to comment more....
Hi Kc,
Who are the swine? Believers/nonbelievers, or some other category?
Yes, I'm very open with others, kind of "equal opportunity." Okay. Casting pearls before swine, casting pearls, such as this thread I wonder?
Michele
Sis I like Wesley's commentary on Mat. 7:6
"Here is another instance of that transposition, where of the two things proposed, the latter is first treated of. Give not - to dogs - lest turning they rend you: Cast not - to swine - lest they trample them under foot. Yet even then, when the beam is cast out of thine own eye, Give not - That is, talk not of the deep things of God to those whom you know to be wallowing in sin. neither declare the great things God hath done for your soul to the profane, furious, persecuting wretches. Talk not of perfection, for instance, to the former; not of your experience to the latter. But our Lord does in nowise forbid us to reprove, as occasion is, both the one and the other." ;-)
Can you be more specific with "GOOFY"?
Uhmm... erm... well, uh... *Maio, busted, flees*
Hey Michelle et.Al (That's Latin I think)
I'm with KC, although I'm feeling more like a lobster these days.
(Hey, the option was a bi-valve)
If I did have a problem with you Michele, and I do not: I do not know you near well enough, and you have only been gracious in my hearing. But IF I did have a problem, this would definitely Not be the forum in which to air it.
So Good Luck!
Love Ya
Larry the Lobster
Michele,
Seriously, I agree with Kc and Duane. A blog is not a good forum for doing the kind of thing you seem to have in mind on this post if I'm understanding you correctly. It's really the worst venue I can imagine for it.
Just my opinion. I know you mean well. Or maybe you are just trying some kind of experiment? Maybe you are doing a research study on us? Just taking it at face value I don't see how anything good could come of it for you though.
Gary
Wow, wait a minute guys. I never intended that Michele shouldn't ask for an honest critique here. You may be right about the venue, I don't know, but I constantly ask for my understanding to be critiqued.
I, like most I'm sure, find it near impossible to find anything that might be remotely considered a fault with Michele so I offered something I find pretty common among all believers.
Well, what could I say, you left me waiting here, and no sign you'll talk to me, mmmmm maybe I should make you the same question because to this date no reply from you, so maybe I am.....well I don't know.
If works then it works, it it doesn't then it doesn't.
I was convinced that God gave me the idea for this. Then about a few hours after I posted, I began reviewing every wrong thing I've ever done. My soul was ill! In fact the list of wrongs was much greater than I had realized. I had high evaluations of myself, in many areas. Ha. I kept changing my mind (repenting), "nope, I don't like that, I don't like that, I don't like that either." Before maybe a year backward, there is not much practice or theology that I would have said the same or done the same given the chance today. I'd throw it all out, it's mostly junk; the theology was seriously in a place that resembles the Revelation 2 description of Thyatira, who was known for their love (meaning tolerance), like liberal protestantism or perhaps the emerging church:
"I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first." (vs 19)
But His judgment in that passage shows how God's grace toward a "tolerant" believer can run really low when they put away truth:
"I will strike her children dead." (vs 23)
I'm so glad I've come into fellowship with free grace people and have changed my mind to honor His word more and more.
And what of my behavior seemed holy enough, isn't, and what I thought was kind was not, kind. I noticed that many times, my decision-making has been poor. Which is very sad to me because I'd like to think I know what is right (as a woman this is a major concern).
Faith is so important I realize because without it I may never approve of my choices?? I mean, only approving of my stuff in the last year is pretty pitiful! Next year my theology and choices today will be junk to me too? There are two sides to error in this post: self-exaltation and self-deprecation. To be caught up in what I've done wrong or right is to make everything all about me, and what I might train myself to do as a means to measure up so to speak.
The stress and disappointment over this was overwhelming, but it made God's forgiveness and kindness very big. I tell you, I would like to claim for myself that entire distance "as far as the east is from the west." But I cannot fully escape them, I will be judged for them all one day. The cool thing, to me, was to realize this is His measure of judgment: "Did you have faith in me as you did them?"
I appreciate all the specific comments here, but I was dealing first with the grand scale. I'd appreciate any comments on these thoughts....
Friends :)
"Pearls before swine," being "equal opportunity," being "loving-tolerant," being as Missy called it, "far too gracious," "sappy, etc." I think these are all hitting on the same thing.
Thanks! I see something on which to meditate.
Proverbs 27:6 says,
Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Do I know someone is my friend because they are known to wound me? Or are those who demonstrate true concern, the righteous ones who ought to wound with the truth?
This probably goes well with Kc's comment on pearls before swine and dogs who rend. I checked the notes in my bible and it says that dogs and swine represent those who are "enemies of the gospel."
But that possibly might include enemies of the gospel both inside and outside the church?
Another question,
Is it possible that the converse "friends of the gospel" are those who must understand God's grace, which is loving acceptance as the initiation of relationship to one another?
Hi Michele and all!
I see more of your heart in this Michele, now that you've opened up with some details.
Part of the problem for me, and this goes for this whole community of BLOGVILLE. I feel true care for the people I've come to know here just a wee bit. It's not just a feeling, but In Christ, the kind of commitment that will put up with somebody's crap because you care about them.
That said, this community is limited by the fact that its electronic media, unless people live close enough to meet. I am exposed to Michele to the degree that several trillion electrons representing the thoughts you wish to make public go into these blogs, and I read. Oops and add to that, that being family, the Holy Spirit reveals a, not to sound charismatic, but lacking a phrase, A "HOLY SPIRIT Bond".
Blogville also quite anonymous:
I could be a perfect gentleman here, and have great wisdom, blah blah blah, but be an absolute pig to my family or co-workers. Or someone whom you only know by name, could be a prince at home and a hero in his community, and yet, because of relative anonymity, act like a monster to people in Blogville.
In regards to your last year. I think the HOLY SPIRIT turns on the lights little by little. I know if I could have seen myself when I was first married (1987)for what I was, I don't know what. Maybe we would just chuck it all in despair.
I know this, that honest reflection is important. How do we know if we are building on our foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, or the burnable stuff (I Cor 3) if we don't get a building inspector in sometimes.
I also truly believe that JESUS deeply deeply cares about Rose. HE is not going to lock you out, even in this life, if you don't get the combination just right. HE's like a benevolent "phantom of the opera" HE will work with you 'til your "vocal chords" bleed
because HE wants you to see you as that Rose.
I'm kind of out on a limb here in E. Pa, because I'm in a liberal church with so far no relationships, and no accountability. In contrast, Mrs. has a very close nit accountability group.
So I'm working on that, cause what we need is flesh and blood brothers and sisters to keep us honest, and irritated, so we don't get stagnant.
Shesh! Why can't I ever just say "Hi! How are ya?" Blab Blab Blab. A call going out for anyone who thinks I'm too verbose!
Your Brother In Christ,
Duane
Hi Duane,
You made some interesting comments! I hope that you do find the brotherhood and relationships you need in your congregation....
There are some true cons to internet Christianity. However I had some reactions to some of these,
You said,
I am exposed to Michele to the degree that several trillion electrons representing the thoughts you wish to make public go into these blogs, and I read.
But wouldn't I write down all my convictions if I was convicted and passionate enough to write? And if they are truly trash, they'll be there along with the rest of the gems....
You said,
I could be a perfect gentleman here, and have great wisdom, blah blah blah, but be an absolute pig to my family or co-workers.
But like you said, the same is true in the gap between what we do in Sunday services, and every other day of the week, or how we act when we're at church compared to how we treat those who dwell with us. So isn't the internet roughly the same? It masks to a point.
In fact, I have an inkling that people actually conceal more of their true selves when comparing Sunday morning to the rest of the week, versus internet life compared to real life. People who are on the internet spend more time on the internet, compared to a few hours once every week.
When hard pressed, bad stuff comes out no matter where you're hanging out.
This is why I'd wish to re-define the concept of "publishing" on the internet. As if hitting the "submit" key locks believers into their sins and imperfections forever and ever? Heaven forbid.... Granted, sin is never good nor is bad theology, certainly, granted. Confession and reconciliation and forgiveness are keys we have of which world doesn't make serious use. We may indeed be "publishing" and the world would like to nail us when we're in the wrong, but, why can't we also "publish" how we are evolving in the grace of God -- and say "I'm looking intently at the cross because I sin!"
Is it not cool to be able to minister grace to one another, as our "publication"?
I don't know. I'm probably all one-sided about the internet. BTW, I'm longwinded too, so make yourself at home here.
Michele
I mean, what's the draw to publishing (blogging) if errors in theology and sins in interaction have a weighty finality to it all?
Seems pretty disgusting if I think of it like that. Who wants to be known as a mess-up? And it'll happen eventually.
I know that I'm a mess-up. But the grace of God makes me want to keep going.
(see I ramble too)
So... even if someone disagrees with my comments, it doesn't mean they're actually sinning any less. Why not give out grace regularly? God does. (And I think most of those who visit my blog, do, which is great.)
Ah, I see where your heading now. You want to be even MORE gracious than you already are! I tell you, you've gone too far! ;)
This blog thing has taught me quite a bit about grace - how little of it I can have sometimes. But when pressed by rebuke and example, I've had more opportunities to flex that oft unused muscle and learn what it feels like to use it til exhaustion.
On the one hand, I want to make this tool one that promotes honest, open dialogue or it's really useless to me in life. Yet, I don't want to say something "incorrect" or hurtful to others. I want to be responsible. And I certainly want those I chat with to do the same. I also don't want any of those mistakes I do say available to all for infinity...
Also, the evidence seems to prove when we all dialogue with a spirit of graciousness for any great length of time, our own human nature shifts the pendulum the other direction - and the freedom to hurt abounds once again. It seems a never-ending cycle.
An on-going spirit of forgiveness would be nice. Jesus gave it to us, and He asked us to do the same for one another. It's good to try - and even better if we can forgive those who won't even try. But that's hard.
Hi Michele!
If you could see the color of my face right now! Anonymity does not do a thing for me. If I screw up, I still have a persona here that has been besmirched! chalk up pride as one of my faults! AND
carelessness. I just got off a long phone call, getting warm milk 'cause I have to to start my day at 4:30 a.m. Eastern, when I realized I called you Rose. Now I increase first error by admitting it!
I am sooo sorry and embarassed.
I've spent a lot of time between the blogs past 24 hours before my killer work week starts. Blah Blah Blah.
MMMM that crow is good with warm milk.
Please forgive me.
Rose: please also forgive me!
Duane
Duane,
Calling Michele Rose is actually a supreme compliment. Don't beat yerself up, man!
Michele,
This caught my eye:
There are two sides to error in this post: self-exaltation and self-deprecation.
Right on, sister. My last sermon at Fellowship Bible Church dealt with this: "Get 'Over' Yourself"
You may find it encouraging.
Amen Jim...to both your notes to Duane and Michele.
And why would Rose need to forgive Duane? It was a compliment for both of them Duane!
Duane, Gary & Jim,
Rose is supremely gracious and loves the truth deeply; a total package. If I can pass as her for a day I would.
Gary,
Thanks for the link on the Beach Boys, Little Deuce Coupe. That was a good one cause it introduced all four men. Okay, so I recognize some songs. I'll have to pop back in at Rose's. I'll have to tell her the only part of the song "Good Vibrations" that I know the words to is "good vibrations." If the topic has moved on to bigger and better things, well I'm a day late/dollar short like always.
:)
Jim,
How many times have I been wrapped up in thoughts about my own mis steps, when I sin, and when it has finally torn me up sufficiently I remember I've felt this way many times to no avail, it never departs - Christ is the solution. Not my effort, not my mind.
Thanks for dropping the sermon, I look forward to hearing it.
It is a joy to see how God has used the Body to place you according to your capacity and passion over at Kc's blog. It reminds me in no small way of the final scene of LOTR where the King is famous for saying, "This day does not belong to one man, but to all." The "fellowship of the gospel" may have had internal personality clashes from time to time, but it is the Spirit who gives unity in purpose.
I am thankful for all of those who are adding and talking there, which all goes way beyond my education... lurking is my happy future.
Hi Missy,
Do you want me to be gruff?
Hi MICHELE and All!
Thank you for your graciousness.
Your LOTR reference reminds me of an interview on Moody Radio "Prime Time" last nigt speaking of Church History the Reformation. Greg Wheatley (host) mentioned how important the Printing press became. What we have here, in the net is EVERYMAN'S printing press. It no longer belongs to "THE CHURCH" or large sects, but to the CHURCH.
On topic, I was over to Bobby Grows last night, to get to know the man a little as I prayed for him. He has a beautiful short piece in his blog about bearing about in our bodies the death of CHRIST.
BOY, that really hit home, as I struggle with work, because I end up bearing my flesh (this body of death) as my witness, instead of Christ, because the assigned task is impossible. No I do it because I serve the flesh. Now who stands in need of prayer Bobby or me? Yes.
Love and Peace
Duane
Michele,
You're welcome for the Beach Boys...and you're right, that issue at Rose's has become mute at this point I think.
or moot...either way will work.
No, dear sis, I was being sarcastic from the start (one of my faults!). Your graciousness is to be imitated.
Gary,
Moot, mute, you're right, they both work. Cool!!
If there's two songs I remember from 1989, it's "Kokomo" by the Beach Boys and "Another Day in Paradise" by Phil Collins.
Talk about very different songs that got played to death at the same time! (blah)
:D
Michele
Hi Gary,
I just wanted to tell you how important it has been for me to know you, to listen to your understanding of the Word and see Christ, living, in you (you are undoubtedly both confident and humble at the same time). I'm listening to some of the "Saved or in a State of Grace" lecture from your blog. Hodges made an excellent admonition at the end of part 2, saying something like "it is important that we realize that there are many people who are saved that do not believe that they are saved. We have a responsibility to show them the truth." That was great.
Hodges teaches a lot like my dad does. He breaks it down into steps of logic and thoroughly explores each section, and sometimes it becomes evident at the end of the whole session that the steps in logic were only meant to answer only one part of a larger concern, but he doesn't really listen well because he's so wrapped up in teaching that you have to wait till next time to get to the other parts to the issue.
Anyway, thanks again for your voice in the blogs. Each one of us come, I think, for fellowship online because we share in common (perhaps - thinking more about Missy and Duane's comments) a need to worship Christ through knowing and meditating on our theology....
That's how we do it, that's why we blog between Sundays and between time spent in our own congregations... because we have our need met in this way in such an easy thing as leaving comments for one another to catch up on as we're thinking through scripture while doing mundane things.
But I am convinced that there are no coincidences with God, and each one of us has an important voice in free grace, in fact we are bolstered to interact with one another (giving either grace or truth to one another) because there is most notably, to us, the void, where each one of us is most suited to speak what Christ has given us to say.
I don't know how the Body can experience healthy relationships and healthy theology if it does not bridge fellowship to all its Spirit led members?
Perhaps you can say a few words on that idea. It's rolling around in my mind more and more lately at my own church and our relationships there, as here.
Your sister Michele
Michele,
Thanks for your kind words. Wow, you've given me something worthwhile to ponder. Let me think it over some more. I'm telling you...you just don't ever stop thinking and probing do you!? I bet your dad had to answer a gazillion questions when you were a kid didn't he? :D
What you say about Zane is so true. He was a very special man and and exceptional teacher of God's word. And he didn't just teach it, he lived it too. I really would hate to think of where I might be now if not for his life and ministry...and I only met him in person once! I did receive a short handwritten note from him one time that I will keep in my bible the rest of my life. I'm sure there are many others scattered around the world who would say the same, but I've always felt that God prepared and sent him to minister just to me. He really snatched me out of the fire in my darkest hour when I had about given up all hope of finding answers that made any sense to me.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I'll check in later OK?
P.S.--I think there's one or two more parts to "Saved or in a State of Grace" but I just didn't post them all.
Duane,
That would be great to read about dying to self in imitation of Christ - I just couldn't find it, especially amongst his various blogs. If you give me a link I'd like it. BTW welcome to blogging... I looked around a bit and saw that you started one recently. Looked good - I appreciate reading the Spirit in the scripture meditations....
Glad you've commented, it's great to get to know you....
:D
Michele
Hi Missy,
This was a good insight.
Also, the evidence seems to prove when we all dialogue with a spirit of graciousness for any great length of time, our own human nature shifts the pendulum the other direction - and the freedom to hurt abounds once again. It seems a never-ending cycle.
I think you are saying that those who only correct and do not bear in love are a drain on spiritual growth.
I read through half of Proverbs this week and I made some apologies to a few people who brought out stuff I was doing or else God brought to my attention. But I read this proverb:
Prov. 13:24 "He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly."
This seems to speak to the other side of the proverb I mentioned earlier this week, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." Does a Christian model a loving father because they are sure to participate in correction?
If we trusted one another, we would permit others to speak immediately about our sins or weaknesses, to us. Purity matters and grace matters equally.
Prov 14:34 "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people."
It would be good to use grace and love as a homebase for correction. As you were saying this so well.
I was just talking with a knowledgeable woman yesterday, for about four hours, about how Free Grace is perceived here locally. We are seen as a divisive group (by many), who fight only over theological semantics - and she means that we're being nit-picky to find any substantial fault with Calvinism. It's so sad. I was capable after that long to open her mind to see from the scriptures, that we really do have something important to contribute. But it took four hours because she had been set back by the manner in which we were carrying our differences. I willingly acknowledged it. Even taking a title ("Free Grace Theology"), or calling ourselves a "movement," was enough of an offense to say there was something wrong enough in her understanding of the scriptures (an understanding, mind you, that has allowed her to walk with God just fine). She recommended that free grace people stop being divisive by ceasing to call themselves Free Grace any longer. Interesting.
BTW I'm glad you were joking. It was hard for me to ask you if I should be gruff, I couldn't put a smiley-face or nothin' in the comment.
:D
Hi Michele And Gary and Missy!
I just typed up a gigando post. I hope it didn't get lost in the transmission. [I think it did]
I got the link for Bobby Grow's:
http://affectivedevotions.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/vicarious-cruciformed-living/
nice pad too!
Thanks for the compliment on my blog Michele I'd like to dress it up a bit, but maybe that's not my forte.
In the past couple of weeks especially, you all (present company and this loose confederation of bloggers) has become very important to me.
I believe we have a real need to fellowship around the Father and Jesus.
We can do that here and in this e-neigborhood.
If we can yuck it up a little like at Rose's the other day, that just fills in the picture we have of each other a little. We're not starched shirt theologians (hardly ;)).
I am curious what will become of us as a fellowship. I hope it grows. I do know if nothing else that one day "beyond the sunset" we will recall how once, we gave encouragement to and received encouragement from one another as we gathered around the fire here.
Thanks so much!
I must retire. 4:30 am eastern comes early here.
God Bless You!
Duane
Duane, I think you're right on target, Bro, and I too am very curious as to how this online fellowship will fare in the foreseeable future. I am a staunch advocate of the local church, but one of the things Tim and I have lamented is the lack of any firm Free Grace grounding in a substantial theology of the church. We're all over the map, when we have any at all.
On the "starched shirt theologian" point, there are some here who keep trying to turn me into one :-)
Hi Jim & Michele!
I love a nice starched white shirt, especially after the starch has worn off. I actually enjoy dressing for church. I feel like I'm dressing up for the Lord: Almost like a date, only obviously, different. This here is more like going to somebody's house and visiting with friends. Same at Rose's.
I hope you (Michele) and Rose don't mind, at least at present, there seems to be more room for thread drift here and there, like conversation in a home, while say, Antonios, and KC's is more disciplined, more "purpose driven". Maybe there is a chat room for this sort of community: a coffee house. or maybe we could set one up. But then would that be someones house like this is Michele's?
I respect that. I won't put my feet on the furniture, or yell at the other guests, much less the host, because it's her house, and her guests.
BTW Jim, not that "assignment" driven blogs are less important, on the contrary. I'm just affirming the value of all of these places, and all of our brothers and sisters here.
Annuit Coeptis
Duane
Hi Again,
Jim, "On the contrary" means what you and KC et. Al (whoever Al is) are doing over at KC's is potentially foundational. I am excited about it and am praying for you all. All the ribbing I have given you is just that. Although I might send Alvin over there wid his cufflinks to investigate that vagrancy issue.
I'm anticipating that what you are going to develop will end up being a bigger tent then the 2 camps I'm thinking of encompass combined. What ever it will be, let it be WORD, and SPIRIT driven.
Peace
your brother,
Duane
Hi Duane,
My prayer is exactly that, Bro.
Keep us up to date on H and T. Nice to have you around.
(Ole Alvin is just like an expert Samurai swordsman over at Antonio's.)
Michele,
I agree with Jim that the term "Free Grace Movement" is pretty much a misnomer at this point. I would also agree with you that it's a term that should probably be avoided in our conversation with "outsiders", in large part because of all the negative connotations which have accrued and become associated with it over the past several years.
I am providing a link below for an excellent article by Zane that appeared in the autumn 2007 issue of the JOTGES--"The Spirit of Antichrist: Decoupling Jesus from the Christ". Bob Wilkin had this to say about it:
"*Editor’s Note: This article is a slightly condensed form of a mes-sage given at the 2001 annual GES conference in Dallas. In light of events that have occurred in the intervening 6+ years, the challenges and warnings given in this article have proved prescient."
I couldn't agree more with Bob about that either. Beyond what Zane says here I doubt I would have anything more to offer of much value but I do appreciate you asking.
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2007ii/hodges%20the%20spirit%20of%20the%20antichrist%20edited.pdf
God bless.
Gary
Hi Jim & Michele!
Thanks Jim!
To update those who don't know about "H" and "T", I led an adult Sunday School class in our very small, very liberal church for three Sundays. My perspective is that this Church is the "Babylon" that I've reaped, comparable to Daniel and the "rac' brothers got. Long story, but wanting to leave, especially after this Summer's nat'l conference,but having committed to doing Sunday School, I decided I would go for broke. We did a "fly by the seat of the pants" focused study of John's message of BELIEF. By the end of 3wks at least a couple of people, "H" & "T" indicated that they got it: They were trusting the Lord alone for their eternal salvation. Work Schedule requires me to be absent for 4 Sundays, so last week I sent a package to Sunday school with my wife, Titled "Thank the Lord you Get It! Now that You got It, Here's where you go to get It, if you Forget It." (catchy title eh?)
It contains the scriptures we studied with a little explanation and study assignment.
So I have to wait and pray through 2 more Sundays, to find out if they are ready to tar and feather me or burn me, or just set me aside. But I'm relatively irrelevant in the grand scheme. I know what I heard. It's up to HIM if I take part in their watering and feeding. The best I can do is focus on where He has me today, and pray for H & T with you,
Thanks so much James for asking!
Your Brother
Duane
Duane,
That is so interesting! Praise the LORD you have had success sharing the gospel with (the saved?)! Will pray for "H" and "T".
Michele
Hi Gary,
You said,
"I agree with Jim that the term "Free Grace Movement" is pretty much a misnomer at this point. I would also agree with you that it's a term that should probably be avoided in our conversation with "outsiders", in large part because of all the negative connotations which have accrued..."
As long as the scriptures are not forgotten and I learn how to explain the gap between old thought and new understanding, I suppose that's all I need - well and the LORD :) Sometimes the best fragrance can be quietness.
Thanks for posting those videos. I've been reading and thinking, will keep doing so and share a thought too I bet.
Your blessed sis and happy friend, Michele
Hi Michele and other friends,
Michele,
About your faults, When I find any,
I'll be sure to let ya know.
Thanks Gary, for posting this link to Zane's paper, I read this back when it first came out, but had forgotten all about it.
Makes me wonder what other great truths I've read and then forgot.
Hi Peggie,
Yes, Gary's article posting is good. I read it some time ago. It seemed to me like an apologetic for his own apologetic (on the deserted island). For that reason I am sure that Hodges was open to experiencing a change of mind, and did so.
It seems to me that Hodges was capable of using scripture to prove a biblical point. That's okay; that's what a teacher would do. It's more than just okay, it's wonderful... for a lot of people. It's logical, proveable, comforting. As scripture should be. However forming theology on the desire to prove a point will cause a little trouble here and there because God does not allow us to prove points secured from any contrary examples. To me that's an abuse (of the most minor sort, and all do it everyday honestly) of His Word because He responds to hearts that seek Him. There are always occasional exceptions God makes to His own order, because His values are different than ours.
I can see that kind of tension between God's gift of scripture for the sake of order and ascribing glory for Himself by revelation, and God's heart to redeem, in this passage:
Gal 3:17 "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect."
I see that same trouble (through trying to prove a point with scripture beyond exceptions) in the separationism on the other side of the debate.
What do you think of the article? I noticed he doesn't have comments on over at his blog.
Michele :)
Hi Michele!
"'Saved' like 'born again' is done at other people's church" (some might say). "We don't need that. We were baptized." Or "There are many paths to God, as long as you are fair with people and help the needy...". At the end, I may surmise that they are either blissfully ignorant of their self-righteousness, or hoping they've been good enough, as I encountered a dear woman of the same [faith] at the cemetery: "I'm hoping I'm good enough so that I can join my husband when my time comes".
The main-line church is a mission field. It is typically tolerant of every heresy, yet "tolerance" is the only one that carries it off. Maybe it's comparable to the Samaritan culture. I'm hoping that at least some are open to the truth.
I hope that doesn't sound too intolerant.
IN Christ Alone
Duane
Hi Again Michele! HI Gary!
It seems we cross posted. It may appear that my post is a response to your's of today. Actually I'm a day late.... I'm responding to your kind observation on the subject of H & T above.
Now regarding Our Gary (not Gary the snail), I read Hodges' message.
Despite my post above, I (probably like you Michele) actually have a tolerant streak. Somewhere between Soli Fide and Soli Criste and soli gratia and soli scriptura (incuding the scriptural attributes of GOD) lie my loyalties. If one has always believed he must be good or faithful to be or remain in grace, he probably does not get it. Indeed salvation is in Jesus Christ alone, but IF someone knows he's fallen, and looks to God and God only to lift him up, having never heard of Jesus, can God, and does God have the will according to His bibiical attributes according to scripture, appropriate Jesus to that receiving soul, as HE clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins? Maybe the "if" is spurious, in which case the question is moot, in which case I am rendered mute ;).
I believe (probably with Jim) that
God's attributes of righteousness and fairness, and love, will not reject someone who has never had opportunity to hear about JEZIS (Russian I think), and yet wholly trusts God alone for his redemption and keeping.
Eh?
Your Brother
Duane
Hi Gary and Michele!
One more thought on this Gary. What I am [contending] should in no wise deflate missionary efforts, as I do not know if such people even exist, that would intuitively or viserally (thanks Jim) reach out to GOD because they can't stand the smell of themselves.
I imagine most people, though they know something is wrong with them morally, don't have a clue what the solution is, so they try all that religious kra... uh... stuff.
So we must be missionaries in our own world and send out missionaries, so that the world may know.
Let's keep palaberin' on this, we aren't far apart.
Peace,
Duane
Duane,
Thanks so much for leaving some thoughts. I think I get and agree Duane, The Word is the authority and so is Christ - yet how gracious is the Christ who saves? It's a fair question, and I'm trying to learn the truth myself.
I was about to write another worship post on why I am so grateful for the GES, the FGA and the grace seminary of the NW where I learned what I have. I once naively asked Dr. R. if he thought Hodges was perhaps the father of "free grace theology." In asking I didn't know my history, and I still don't. In my opinion if he is not the father he is one of a handful. My opinion really doesn't weigh, I don't matter in the grand scheme and I know that, but you've got it anyway.
:D Like the parabalin'
Michele
Duane,
Your last two posts are absolutely spot on. You're amazing, dude---I'm working on my next post for KC's, and you scooped me, Bro.
Michele,
I'm not sure Zane was experiencing a change of mind, I think he was trying to expound on what he said in the deserted island speech.
I think he is doing what he always did. Showing the simplicity of the Gospel and sharing his concerns. He said “But the question is this. Can grace people still search the Scriptures honestly when some traditional view of their own is called into question? Are we open to the Word of God whether it agrees with us or not? “
I agree with Zane's conclusion, God has raised up the grace movement, whether we go forward or stand around and argue remains to be seen.
Hi Peggie,
Thanks for leaving that reply. My context is off, so I rely on others to explain some nuances. I'm glad you explained that. Have you gone to any GES conferences? I believe they played the Spirit of the Antichrist talk on the third morning, I don't know maybe Jim or Antonio remembers for sure.
If you are planning on going to the GES conference, email me because if I can afford to go again I would love to meet you and your husband...
:) God bless you today!
Hi Jim! Hi Michele!
Jim, you and I have probably been on a similar track for years, we just happened to intersect at Antonio's, and then Michele hosted the Fred and Gary shootout.
Truth is, you affirmed my thoughts long before I expressed them here.
I was moved by your link over at "In the Garden". I spent an hour composing a response there, and now I'm afraid to post it.
Your Friend,
Duane
OK, folks, sorry to bust in again, but it's "round two" for Bobby and the CT scan: They found a mass in his pelvis and he will need a biopsy to see if it is cancer. The Doc said he would make it through this, but he is still scared to death and needs our prayer.
Thanks in advance to all my brothers and sisters on Michele's.
Peggie,
I began reading "Absolutely Free" by Hodges today. The foreword by Dr. R. says, "In defense of the purity of the gospel of grace, Zane Hodges has combined his years of careful biblical exposition with seasoned humility and simplicity to recapture a portrait of God's unconditional love. ... When you have finished Absolutely Free!, I trust that you will be able to join me in saying, 'Thank you, Lord Jesus!'"
:D
I just wanted to mention the result of this post. It has been a great, great thing to read the book of Proverbs, after having experienced what I have. As I mentioned much farther up, my sisters and bros were kind, very tempered to represent an unburdensome (acts 15) rebuke. But Satan was not. I was ill, and I judged my own works stringently and felt devastated. But it didn't end there. Inwardly, grace came from Christ. And grace and mercy were a little hard to believe. But it is pure joy.
And I am thankful. I have "ears to hear" and the sayings of wisdom mean a lot, and speak a lot. A lot of confirmation, and a lot of conviction of my shortcomings.
I'm very thankful that the Body of Christ works as it does. It does not neglect the commands to make disciples of one another.
Faithful are the wounds of friends.
Thanks Jim (Hi Duane!)
Definitely praying for Bobby!
A proverb to summarize this post (proverbs are so awesome).
Blows that hurt cleanse away evil, as do stripes the inner depths of the heart. Prov. 20:30
BTW Jim, you may enjoy reading the literal translation for your "visceral" discussion at Kc's:
Blows that hurt cleanse evil, as do stripes the rooms of the belly.
:-\
Yeah, Michele, it takes guts to "do the works of the Father" (my next post on KC's), and it'll be interesting to see who steps up to the plate for FG in the near future.
Okay, I'll read it shortly. Been learning a lot by reading everyone's comments. RIght now I'm writing a post on proverbs.
Let us know or drop a link for news on Bobby, please.
Michele,
You said: "I began reading "Absolutely Free" by Hodges today." The foreword by Dr. R. says, "In defense of the purity of the gospel of grace, Zane Hodges has combined his years of careful biblical exposition with seasoned humility and simplicity to recapture a portrait of God's unconditional love. ... When you have finished Absolutely Free!, I trust that you will be able to join me in saying, 'Thank you, Lord Jesus!'"
"Absolutely Free" was the first book I ever read by Zane and that was when God really began turning the light on for me. When you finish it, I too, trust that you will join Dr R and many others around the world in saying, "Thank you, Lord Jesus!"
I also appreciate this comment by Peggie:
"I'm not sure Zane was experiencing a change of mind, I think he was trying to expound on what he said in the deserted island speech. I think he is doing what he always did. Showing the simplicity of the Gospel and sharing his concerns. He said “But the question is this. Can grace people still search the Scriptures honestly when some traditional view of their own is called into question? Are we open to the Word of God whether it agrees with us or not? “ I agree with Zane's conclusion, God has raised up the grace movement, whether we go forward or stand around and argue remains to be seen."
Thank you Peggie, especially for your last sentence.
To borrow Jim's metaphor, when Zane Hodges stepped up to the plate for FG in 1989 he literally (pun intended!) knocked the cover off the ball with "Absolutely Free":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZkgRwpkh7c&feature=related
For the next 19 yrs it was thunder and lightning for grace and truth right up until the very end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ft_enkr9c&feature=related
I just love old movies!
Now that Zane is gone, I guess the least I can do, like Dr R, is "step up to the plate" on Zane's behalf for the true and original FG Movement and again remind everyone of a grand slam Zane once hit:
http://easygoer1.blogspot.com/2009/11/
stay-awake-its-later-than-you-think.html
If anyone has had "guts to do the works of the Father", it has been men like Zane and Dr R. Many little people like me are still thanking the Lord Jesus Christ to this very day for raising them up for the battle.
God bless you Michele,
Gary
P.S.--When it comes to the "Free Grace Movement", Zane Hodges is STILL THE MAN-- and don't let anyone tell you different.
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