tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post1486099902588497426..comments2023-08-02T02:42:17.509-07:00Comments on sanc's blog: How Much We Need Need (-final-)Sanctificationhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06464241596473599613noreply@blogger.comBlogger107125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-21250170537573417562011-08-08T18:54:54.923-07:002011-08-08T18:54:54.923-07:00Yeah, Michele, that makes sense. It's interest...Yeah, Michele, that makes sense. It's interesting how God works differently in different people's lives. <br /><br />I gave my testimony a few years ago and it was centered around my quest for eternal life--specifically, life without end in the presence of God--after which an older Christian came up to me and nicely said something like, "I find it interesting how God saves people with different stories," which I took to mean , "Bub, don't think that's the only way God brings people to faith." I smiled and dismissed him in my mind, just like I dismissed other testimonies that I couldn't relate to or didn't fit my grid. But I'm working on it, and still processing...David Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09600155615649009943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-90906034975191551082011-08-07T20:39:29.669-07:002011-08-07T20:39:29.669-07:00Hi David,
My response was to this comment,
I'...Hi David,<br /><br />My response was to this comment,<br /><br /><i>I'm afraid we rate crucial truths according to the lenses we wear. For those of us who have a Christian background and who have struggled with assurance of salvation (which, it seems, applies to many FGer's), the greatest discovery and source of joy is knowing our eternal destiny, at least initially. For others, I think, it's discovering a personal relationship with this Isa, who, it turns out, is actually the God of the Universe who LOVES me.</i><br /><br />The need for life that I brought as I approached Jesus for salvation is probably different. I say this because I didn't grow up in the church. For those who have grown up in the church the area of their need could be more specific. <br /><br />Let me know if I make sense; I appreciated how you highlight variable circumstances that cause us to need life in Jesus.Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-22404814773984580192011-08-07T17:29:09.357-07:002011-08-07T17:29:09.357-07:00Charity, thank you for your kind words. Your summa...Charity, thank you for your kind words. Your summary statement "I may not agree with this completely, but God is here" makes a great title for the last three years of my life. <br /><br />Michele, I don't think I quite understand your last comment.David Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09600155615649009943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-43670263255012325992011-08-06T21:39:04.063-07:002011-08-06T21:39:04.063-07:00David:
I have been appreciating your comments sin...David:<br /><br />I have been appreciating your comments since you made them as well, but for a different reason. The question I have been pondering recently is where is the point in which theology and humanity meet. You illustrated this perfectly! <br /><br />You wrote: "That humbly brings to mind that I used to be fairly negative about the Jesus Film, partly because I didn't like the Campus Crusade gospel and partly because they chose Luke instead of John on which to base the film. OK, I guess I still don't think that's the best way to do it, but I began hearing one amazing story after another of how God was miraculously using the film to bring Muslim people to Christ. It's made me check to see if my lenses need to be adjusted." <br /><br />Bravo to you for being able to genuinely say "I may not agree with this completely, but God is here." I also appreciate that this causes you to seek to "adjust your lenses" rather than to defend why you're right and make a fight out of it<br /><br />I guess I am of the opinion that our lenses needs constant adjusting to remind us that Jesus came to save sinners and not to bestow upon us perfect theology. This is a growth process as we learn more about who He is and how He is working. We all need reminded to let God out of our box. Thank you for the reminder!<br /><br />Michele:<br /><br />I sent you an e-mail today. I hope is makes it to you.Charitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-12803799446857266252011-08-06T18:31:08.923-07:002011-08-06T18:31:08.923-07:00David,
Your comment really stuck with me since yo...David,<br /><br />Your comment really stuck with me since you made it. <br /><br /><i>I'm afraid we rate crucial truths according to the lenses we wear. For those of us who have a Christian background and who have struggled with assurance of salvation (which, it seems, applies to many FGer's), the greatest discovery and source of joy is knowing our eternal destiny, at least initially. </i><br /><br />It's likely I have no ability to relate because I didn't grow up in the church. That would mean that a simple and clear gospel of assurance is as crucial as many people know it to be.<br /><br />Thanks for that important point.Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-83037641287929260302011-08-04T17:36:54.665-07:002011-08-04T17:36:54.665-07:00Hey Michele, no, I haven't been back to your c...Hey Michele, no, I haven't been back to your church. I/we get to the Willamette Valley two or three times a year but last year was the first time in <em>many</em> years (ha, decades?) that I'd been in your church, and what a nice surprise to see you! Say hi to cousin Debbie--I haven't seen her since then, either.David Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09600155615649009943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-69630227612048286232011-08-04T17:10:11.925-07:002011-08-04T17:10:11.925-07:00Hi David,
So good to hear from you. It is amazin...Hi David,<br /><br />So good to hear from you. It is amazing to learn a thing or two about how the Spirit truly falls on those being saved. Gives me shivers. I believe your comment speaks many things right up Tim's alley, so I invited him to visit and comment. You said, <i>...is actually the God of the Universe who LOVES me</i>.<br /><br />Receiving God is the same as receiving His love. I heard Antonio say in the last week, (paraphrased) "what other kinds of knowledge are there, except of propositional??" <br /><br />Ephesians 3:14-19,<br /><br /><i>For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, <b>that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith</b>; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, <b>may be able to comprehend with all the saints</b> what is the width and length and depth and height— <b>to know the love</b> of Christ which <b>passes knowledge</b>; that <b>you may be filled with all the fullness of God</b>. </i><br /><br />God says, "God is love." His will is for a 3-D (width length, height) reception of God, the Person!<br /><br /><i>Great addition</i>. <br /><br />Hope you are well. Perhaps I'll run into you at my church again soon... what a delight. In fact were you here recently?Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-84387153423020354742011-08-04T16:46:37.362-07:002011-08-04T16:46:37.362-07:00Michele and all:
I just this evening read the com...Michele and all:<br /><br />I just this evening read the comments starting July 30 but I was thinking along these very same lines earlier today as I heard a family tell of the work they're doing is a Muslim country. It's not the promise of unending life in heaven and deliverance from hell that draws the average Muslim; it's seeing the <em>love of Jesus</em> displayed in the lives of His followers.<br /><br />I'm afraid we rate crucial truths according to the lenses we wear. For those of us who have a Christian background and who have struggled with assurance of salvation (which, it seems, applies to many FGer's), the greatest discovery and source of joy is knowing our eternal destiny, at least initially. For others, I think, it's discovering a personal relationship with this Isa, who, it turns out, is actually the God of the Universe who LOVES me.<br /><br />That humbly brings to mind that I used to be fairly negative about the Jesus Film, partly because I didn't like the Campus Crusade gospel and partly because they chose Luke instead of John on which to base the film. OK, I guess I still don't think that's the best way to do it, but I began hearing one amazing story after another of how God was miraculously using the film to bring Muslim people to Christ. It's made me check to see if my lenses need to be adjusted. I don't know what goes through these people's minds regarding the assurance of their eternal destiny as part of their response to the story they've just seen on the movie screen, but the thing that seems to be clear is that their response pretty well matches up to the climactic words (in my opinion) of John's Gospel: "My Lord and my God!"<br /><br />I'm still working through all this stuff and am not sure exactly where I'll land. I think everyone in these discussions believes that eternal life is received though believing in Jesus; the disagreement is over defining eternal life and faith in Him. Regarding the latter, I'm thinking that Gordon Clark's words were truer than he meant when, addressing the idea of a minimum, he said it was "the wrong question with a perverted outlook."David Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09600155615649009943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-91171792172098003182011-08-04T09:08:41.181-07:002011-08-04T09:08:41.181-07:00Hi Charity,
Yes Jim (agent4him) and Tim both live...Hi Charity,<br /><br />Yes Jim (agent4him) and Tim both live in your state. They are encouraged by your visit yesterday here, and when you get a chance you might take up Tim's invitation and see some of his recent posts at <a href="http://fullcontactchristianity.org/" rel="nofollow">Full Contact Christianity</a>. <br /><br />My profile is pretty hard to find, sancsblog@gmail.com<br /><br />You have kids, that's great. Look forward to hearing from you.Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-46398271888994496502011-08-03T20:58:49.817-07:002011-08-03T20:58:49.817-07:00Charity,
A lot of folks are reluctant to comment...Charity, <br /><br />A lot of folks are reluctant to comment over at my place for one reason or another, but I want you to know you're welcome anytime. In any case, thank you for delurking here; your comment was a great encouragement to me. What you say rings true for me as well in my own work with the rougher youth 'round here. Introducing them to the God John's gospel <i>actually</i> portrays is tough, but rewarding work. Getting them to care about what happens when they die is mostly just impossible, initially. When they love Jesus and want to be just like Him, <i>then</i> they want to go see Him when they die.<br /><br />(Btw, I'm also in CO -- love to meet you some time.)Tim Nicholshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17811047932042592985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-25575391893562996532011-08-03T19:28:42.102-07:002011-08-03T19:28:42.102-07:00Thanks for the kind words from both you and agent4...Thanks for the kind words from both you and agent4him. Charity is a name I was given not my real one. I use it online and in circles where I am known. I live in Colorado. I am not a facebooker yet, I am too busy with kids and a small business, but I would love to continue chatting with you. Is there a contact you page somewhere on your blog?Charitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-81985401677486093752011-08-03T18:51:13.928-07:002011-08-03T18:51:13.928-07:00Hi Charity,
Amen, to all your comments! What par...Hi Charity,<br /><br />Amen, to all your comments! What part of the country are you from (just wondering if you are the Charity I know)? I loved this comment,<br /><br /><i>All of these wonderful people have been rejected by traditional churches as too messy, dirty, poor, or broken to really matter in God's kingdom. They know that they can not adhere to the rules that would make them look, act and smell like "real Christians". Most of them have figured out that God must reject them, too. We in Free Grace have the only message that can possibly bring life to these beautiful people, but now they are rejected by Free Grace as well. May it never be!!!!</i><br /><br />Even though they are offering what they call a "simple gospel" because it is shorter in content, it is so rigid my kind friend Diane (who has now bowed out of conversation, so I am going to reproduce her comment from Unashamed of Grace) said yesterday:<br /><br /><i>The purpose for which they were made is to have a living relationship with God, but they can't have it UNTIL they know Him as their SAVIOR from ETERNAL condemnation. They must FIRST be born again to have that relationship with Him. They need His LIFE. They are NOT saved by believing in Him for just ANYTHING that they need RIGHT NOW. They are NOT saved by believing that He loves them and they love Him back. <b>There are so many church going people who "love God" in their own way, but they're NOT SAVED</b>. They're going to spend an eternity apart from Him because they're not His children. They need to be born again, and there's only one way to be born again.... to believe in Jesus for everlasting life. That's it~!!!</i><br /><br />Wow. Every time I read that I really want to ask her, does she believe as she says above? I don't know, maybe someone else could read her comments, differently? Perhaps she will come back and clarify, I hope.<br /><br />As a result of doing this series I was inspired to pray, "Lord, where is Your bride?" and He gave me a ministry to an unbelieving Jewish person, which is such an honor! Also because of it I wrote a proposal called <i>The Disciple Making Workhorse</i> which I've given to my leadership, and we'll see what happens. These things are always better done than said, as I am sure you have discovered. We're pointing them to get life from Jesus! Pretty easy. Praise God for your work. <br /><br />Thanks for the encouragement. Please find me on facebook or email; definitely need a feminine cohort 'round these parts ;)<br /><br />MicheleSanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-81136871468026389302011-08-03T16:15:20.458-07:002011-08-03T16:15:20.458-07:00Charity,
I don't have any idea who you are, b...Charity,<br /><br />I don't have any idea who you are, but your words come from Spirit and truth. Praise God for your ministry and sensitivity. I'm just beginning a walk on the wild side with bikers, homeless, and others such as you are describing, and that's where the Lord is doing some of his greatest work. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your heart and words of encouragement!agent4himhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10772688948048061811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-87529088113501628912011-08-03T15:21:24.174-07:002011-08-03T15:21:24.174-07:00I have followed the discussion so I know that this...I have followed the discussion so I know that this argument will be dismissed as a sanctification issue rather than an issue of initial salvation. Knowing this then, I will say up front why this is incorrect. Look at the Genesis account (I know I shall be poopooed for bringing the Old Testament into an "evangelistic" discussion). God did not mourn the loss of Adam and Eve's eternal life. He mourned the loss of relationship and sent them away so they would not live forever in their broken state. He did not promise a healing remedy to restore their eternal destiny, but to restore fellowship with Him.<br /><br />Jesus demonstrates this same priority in His interactions with broken people. John 4:14 He offers living water. He offers Himself!! Then the discussion leads to eternal life. Again in 3:18 He tells Nicodemus that he who does not "believe in the name" of the "only begotten Son of God" is judged already. Without accepting the offer of Jesus Himself the only other choice is judgement. John the Baptist started it in John 1:29. Did he say Behold the Lamb who brings eternal life? No! He offered restoration! "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". John 3:16 begins with God's great love for the world (that's people) and then His gift. The gift is not eternal life the gift is Jesus!!! Jesus was interested in meeting people where they were and offering them the chance to believe and be restored to the status of God's children.<br /><br />My heart is broken! We who adhere to Free Grace have the words of life to the world! Yet we marginalize our message by putting "eternal life" in an ivory tower, surround it with barbed wire and landmines, and stake our claim on it as "the only way". This thinking and argument are no different than the list of "proofs of saving faith" lordshipers put out there. It continues to place judgement on someone else's faith even if that is not the intended purpose and continues to demonstrate that Christians can only fight about doctrine instead of impacting the world.<br /><br />On that note, I say to you, Michelle, I have so appreciated the way you have stood your ground on these issues. You are in my prayers as you continue to grow in knowledge and take on the challenges presented to you. Keep the faith, sister!Charitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-21182547382784125602011-08-03T15:20:50.668-07:002011-08-03T15:20:50.668-07:00Michelle:
I have been a lurker for a long time bo...Michelle:<br /><br />I have been a lurker for a long time both on your blog and on Tim's. I have listened to the discussions with some frustration for awhile, but I finally feel compelled to comment. I chose your blog because, like you, I am not a theologian. I am simply a believer who wants to share Jesus with a world that needs Him desperately. Besides us girls need to stick together:)<br /><br />I live my life loving on drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals and criminals. This is the sphere of influence God has chosen for me and I am growing to love it. All of these wonderful people have been rejected by traditional churches as too messy, dirty, poor, or broken to really matter in God's kingdom. They know that they can not adhere to the rules that would make them look, act and smell like "real Christians". Most of them have figured out that God must reject them, too. We in Free Grace have the only message that can possibly bring life to these beautiful people, but now they are rejected by Free Grace as well. May it never be!!!!<br /><br />What would cause me to make such an accusation? Diane wrote: "Michele, no one is saved if they haven't yet understood that Jesus HAS saved them eternally through faith in Him alone. THAT'S THE GIFT~!!! That's the saving message that we bring to unsaved people. If they don't understand THAT message, how can they receive Him? They can't. There is only one truth that can be believed in order to pass from death to life." And again "There's only one requirement to be born again, and that's to believe in Jesus Christ for everlasting life."<br /><br />For most of the people I minister to "eternal life" is not even on the radar, but I watch everyday as their lives are transformed by the message of a God who loves them just as they are and wants to have a personal relationship with them. He loved them so much that He sent His Son to pay the ransom for their sin and mess to restore this relationship. THIS is what we are created for, to commune with God and reflect His glory to the world we live in. How shocked and thrilled they are that all they need is to believe and they can have this "God with them". They can have peace and love in circumstances most of us can not begin to imagine. Now they are dismissed again for not believing the "right" thing. If Free Grace rejects them, there really is no other place to go.<br /><br />Yes, I speak to them of eternal life (mostly as a reminder that the trials of this life really are temporary), but ultimately, what really heals their lives is relationship. <br /><br />continued next comment:Charitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-79734471525042420582011-07-30T09:01:40.834-07:002011-07-30T09:01:40.834-07:00Gary,
I'm sorry; the very last thing I ever s...Gary,<br /><br />I'm sorry; the very last thing I ever said to the one who should not be named was, "I am not your enemy." I don't believe it. I do not morph into an enemy or a case study because of my theological persuasion. I was on the offense because he used to say everywhere he got a chance that certain beliefs caused their devotees to lose their ethical and moral compass - and so I pointed out that he was examining works to judge the salvation of others. It's a bunch of garbage.<br /><br />Tim and Jim are not your enemy either. I'm not buying it. The only enemies I have are ones who think they can transform dear ones like you into something they obviously aren't. I don't care what theological persuasion one holds while acting that way.Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-19732709511981063342011-07-29T21:43:24.366-07:002011-07-29T21:43:24.366-07:00Whenever you start mimicking your lords and compar...Whenever you start mimicking your lords and comparing me to "him who should not be named", I can assure you I don't need to be told it's time to separate. <br /><br />Every blessing to you in Christ.goehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09000003364693785318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-4968527186156306682011-07-29T21:30:40.636-07:002011-07-29T21:30:40.636-07:00Reading these last few comments has me more concer...Reading these last few comments has me more concerned for you than ever Michele. And I know Antonio is genuinely concerned as well. What more can I say? Sorry I was unable to help you.goehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09000003364693785318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-9114072130309214742011-07-29T18:27:16.832-07:002011-07-29T18:27:16.832-07:00Antonio,
I do not speak clear from time to time, ...Antonio,<br /><br />I do not speak clear from time to time, so I'm asking if you are interested in apologizing. I know I'm not perfect myself. You're linking here, to post something at UofG, about me, as I replied <a href="http://fullcontactchristianity.org/2011/07/10/crock-pot-theology/#comment-3076" rel="nofollow">here</a>?<br /><br />All that old stuff you said about me, you appear to have had no change of mind, no effect from my response. DId you read it?Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-21110945852758719282011-07-29T17:48:16.450-07:002011-07-29T17:48:16.450-07:00Antonio,
It's apparent to me more than ever I...Antonio,<br /><br />It's apparent to me more than ever I don't understand women and authority, yet. It's got me into trouble over and over again. So that's my issue I've got to work on. <br /><br />I know men don't feel comfortable as women saying they're sorry, so maybe that's beyond your norm. I'd like you to say something again because you're sarcastic. I'm glad you came back, and I'm glad that I'm invited, because I want to be.Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-60090649940078467352011-07-29T15:20:38.340-07:002011-07-29T15:20:38.340-07:00Both links work, but I named the first one wrong, ...Both links work, but I named the first one wrong, it should be "Part 2"<br /><br />my bad!<br /><br />AntonioAntoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383024070371150288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-29131274224190017982011-07-29T15:19:43.766-07:002011-07-29T15:19:43.766-07:00Hi Michele,
I submitted another part of my commen...Hi Michele,<br /><br />I submitted another part of my comments to Tim here:<br /><br /><a href="http://unashamedofgrace.blogspot.com/2011/07/putting-focus-on-3d-theology-part-2.html" rel="nofollow">Putting the Focus on 3D Theology: Part 1</a><br /><br />I would like very much for you to come and be a part of my thread here, that is, unless you can't get the permission of those who have authority over you.<br /><br />The first part of the comment is also on Unashamed of Grace, where I made some comments about my impressions of your 3 man band. I would really like your comments there as well.<br /><br /><a href="http://unashamedofgrace.blogspot.com/2011/07/putting-focus-on-3d-theology-part-1.html" rel="nofollow">Part 1: Tim's comments and My Impressions</a><br /><br />I really hope that you can get their permission because I really want to interact with you on these things.<br /><br />AntonioAntoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383024070371150288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-53921180581095116032011-07-29T14:10:42.116-07:002011-07-29T14:10:42.116-07:00I do understand, Gary, completely. And now I know...I do understand, Gary, completely. And now I know what to say in response to you. Ten million thank yous for reestablishing with me.<br /><br />You flew so hard and fast at Tim and Jim. They, or this issue in general, makes you un-trust. That hurts me. I am here, but I wanna talk about that part. Long before Jim showed up the first time in February 2009 at Rose's blog, I wrote post after post after post about the importance of receiving one another and freedom to examine the claims of others without suspicion. It's your suspicion that makes talking with you so very difficult, when you're feeling it. <i>I'm</i> afraid to talk to you because I think that I've transformed into a bad guy somehow, against my heart for sure. Remember our former mutual opponent, when you and I were here? His suspicion of others made it impossible to go anywhere and he ultimately needed to "separate" himself. I'd prefer endurance more than a demonstration of power. Will you consider this?<br /><br />As for me being a victim, I'm still open to learning, in fact whatever Antonio posts on his blog, if it increases my understanding, I intend to comment about it.<br /><br />I'm Bucktooth. What more do I need to say, right? ;)Sanctificationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12840607408258267991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-49465312927220351432011-07-29T13:03:06.157-07:002011-07-29T13:03:06.157-07:00I should say "largely" what this all abo...I should say "largely" what this all about...but of course, there's obviously more to it than just you.goehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09000003364693785318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11892709.post-28957850876183523242011-07-29T12:54:07.907-07:002011-07-29T12:54:07.907-07:00I do, of course, still consider you a dear friend,...I do, of course, still consider you a dear friend, and respect you for displaying the integrity to allow me to post here. In fact, my friendship with you is essentially what this is all about for me, Michele. Maybe you will understand that one day.<br /><br />Garygoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09000003364693785318noreply@blogger.com